realistic gunnery

[StSanta]

ROFL westy  

[AKDejaVu]

I have mixed oppinions on the current gunnery model.

I'm prepping for my first .50 cal target experience this month.  Some interesting notes so far indicate about an 18 foot drop over 1000 yards.  It doesn't seem that occurs in AH.  Then again.. the aircraft don't really seem to be 10 feet tall either.  I suppose its possible with 6 .50's to hit something at that range, but it seems a like it should be more difficult.  I hit a Yak at 1.0k this week, though I didn't kill him.  I pinged him pretty badly.

As for what a bullet should do at that range... I saw a show on snipers this week.  I love the History Channel.  It concluded talking about how snipers were moving away from targetting personell and being traned to target equipment instead.  These guys were hitting enemy equipment from 1500 yards away and doing significant damage.  That was with .50 calibre rounds.

Basically, I don't have enough of a feel for the whole scene to call anything accurate or inaccurate.  It seems the bullets should drop farther, but perhaps they do... 1000 yards is a long way to distinguish 18 feet (especially on the PC).  The destructive force of the bullet does seem accurate to me.. even on the 20's.  I do believe most games downplay the destructive aspect of the weapons in favor of prolonged gameplay.  <S> to HTC for trying to stay true to the laws of physics.

AKDejaVu

[Gunslayer]

I have a very hard time believing anyone can get a consistant hit at d900 plus with a cannon round. I have actually tested this too in the trainging arena. I have film if anyone wants me to post it. Here is the scenario. My friend and I (deezcamp) were practicing dogfighting in the training arena. He was P38 i was the Chog (I know its a lame matchup, but he thought he was so good he said in a very cocky manner "fly whatever ya want, I'll kill ya anyway.) During the fighting I amanged to damage one of his engines. As soon as i did, he proceded to run straight and level for an extended period of time. At distances ranging from d800+ to d1.2k i busted out a ton of bullets at him (in the TA you have like 4000 rds). He didn't get a scratch til he got closer than 700.
    Now i am not saying its impossible to hit at that range, but it is very rare. More likely is that these guys from New Zealand are flying against someone from the US or europe and on the other guys FE they are only 500-700 away.
   As far as the damage model, i haven't figured that out yet. The other night I twice fought a lancaster and the first time shot about 450 hispano rds scoring a lot of hits but nothing fatal. The other time i shot 200 hispano rds, got a ton of hits and knocked out both of the guys engines (I verified this by asking the guy). THen the very next day, I bounced a lancaster, atacked him from a below, he turned and I fired one short burst from directly abeam. BOOM he exploded into a fiery ball. I looked at my ammo counter, only fifty rds gone. Now I don't know where i hit this guy, but how can you kill a bomber like that  

[Vulcan]

yeah but I asked RRAF, and his difference in view was the same old d200, ie the d1.2 shot he saw as d1, and the d1.4 he saw as d1.2.

So nah nah nah  

 

Originally posted by funked:
Hmmm what do Spatula and Vulcan have in common?  Massive, other side of the the planet, net lag.

[easymo]

 I think the one ping explosion, is HTCs way of handling a pilot kill. When I hunt bombers, I always go for the cockpit. Because If I don't explode them, they keep right on hitting me, even though there wing has come off.

[janneh]

LOL ! Westy  
Is that the G-2, which finish people used ?

If icons is the main issue on long range gunning, how about icons off at range 1.5 and less. If I recall it right, camo(?) suggested it before. I think it's good idea.

[Jekyll]

 

If icons is the main issue on long range gunning, how about icons off at range 1.5 and less. If I recall it right, camo(?) suggested it before. I think it's good idea.

Well this idea has been floating around since day 1 of Open Beta.  Those of you who have been around since then may well recall that the very first posts in the 'Gameplay' forum after 29th September 1999 related to long-range gunnery.  I've even asked HT in the arena whether we would ever see it, and the answer was a simple "No".

Hopefully the gunsight shaking predicted for 1.06 'may' put a stop to much of this nonsense.



------------------
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11

[Spatula]

 

Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Spat, I missed the link to the film, where is it?

Just to clarify Rip... There aint a link to a film cause there aint one.

Yer, i know i shoulda been recording it, for sure. In hindsight all blunders can be avoided yadedahdedah.

But this aint a lie, exageration, or fabrication. This is what i saw from my FE plain and simple.

[Spatula]

   

Originally posted by funked:
Hmmm what do Spatula and Vulcan have in common?  Massive, other side of the the planet, net lag.

Oh really? Thanks for the geography lesson. I'm well aware on lag and its effects and what my mean ping time is and how it effects the discrepancies that myself and the other pilot see. From my experience at those speeds (and i have done tests over roger wilco with wingmen) that he would have been around 400 yards closer to me than what it looked on my FE - i accept this, it isnt up for debate.

But take 400 yards off 1.4 and what do you get? circa 1000 yards. I know that there are recorded events when planes have been hit and killed in RL at these ranges, albeit very rarely. In AH it happens too often.

Yip jek, i hope the gun shake thing help aleviate this problem. The dispersion code helped as well, so it aint as bad as it was.

BTW my mean ping time is about 360ms. that aint that bad.


[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 03-07-2001).]

[Jigster]

With a little practice in leading, I'd imagine anyone could hit consistently past 900 yards, on anything that isn't constantly rolling (slight manuvers aren't a biggie)

I can usually land hits out to 1000 yards on my end (if the situation requires), with all but the LW/Russian cannons, albeit at the expense of ammo. But because there is so much rifle/HMG ammo in most planes it's not that big of loss.

- Bess

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by Tac:
I would LOVE to see the laser rangers turned OFF for one week...after d500 the con doesnt look much different if its at d500 or d800.. and d1.0+ could be at d1.6 and you still wouldnt notice a significant change in the AC's size.

Guns *may* be historically correct, but that gameplay BS billboard icon+laseranger turn AH into arcade. Its like Fighter Ace, but with harder FM.

What do you base these absolute statements upon?

Did it ever occur to you that the way these planes look on a 19" monitor is extremely "historically incorrect?"

I'll grant that in RL you NEVER see icons.  
OTOH, I don't think you appreciate just how much detail you CAN see on another aircraft on ranges that FAR exceed what you are talking about here.

Here's just one RL example. Many, many times I have watched the gear come down on a B737 at a MEASURED 2 miles away. This is to say that you can be watching a guy making a parallel approach in the clean configuration and then easily see the gear drop down and tell the gear is out.

Try that on any PC Flight Sim B-17...the gear/tires are about the same size...and see if you can tell if it's gear up or down.

Icons are there for a reason. Yes, they are a crutch, yes they could be adjusted.

But PC detail/definition does not BEGIN to compare with RL on a clear day.

Want no icons for realism? Fine. Give me a monitor and program that shows me RL detail.  

[Staga]

Few days ago I was chaseing a bish fighter with c-hog. My fuel was low and the enemy was about thousand yard away from me flying straight trying to escape. I opened fire and saw some flashes. Because of low fuel and ammo I had to turn back to base...

[LLv34 Jarsci]

We played a lot of H2H with our Sqd and there the icons were turned off. There we all noticed that all long range shootouts were reduced almost to nil. And that was only because range estimates were made only by pilot. When I played AH online I could easily down pilots at d700 yrds with cannons and mg`s but when no icons at H2H I managed to kill only between d300 and below ( Of course I do not use tracers and I shoot only short bursts) =====> Conclusion :
If range info could be deleted the long range kills would be severely reduced and also the ammo-saving burst shooting would be useless d200 yrds and further on. People would always to really achieve solid 6 oc position before shooting and then shoot longer bursts. ====> closer to real life situations. This rock solid range information also makes high deflection long range shots too easy. I suggest that all of ye pilots try out shooting without icons so you see what I mean. That way you can whine HTC to drop out the range readout.  

LLV34 Jarski

[Tac]

"Did it ever occur to you that the way these planes look on a 19" monitor is extremely "historically incorrect?"

Of course, you will never fit a fighter inside a monitor   . Yet if you zoom in and watch an enemy con without icons you will see it grows in size/shrinks according to distance. You can guess what a con's range is that way.


Toad, turn icons off when offline and try and guess ranges of the circling planes. Extend away from them, come in close, etc. When you guess, turn icons on and see if you got it right.

Below d600 your guesses will begin to be correct, beyond that you will have a hard time, missing by around 150 d's on each guess.

I fly a lot of H2H iconless, it REALLY makes this game shine. No game comes even CLOSE to AH without enemy icons (friendly icons needed to IFF though). The experience is exponentially boosted, each dogfight tests your ACM and in many cases leaves you shaking in your seat from the excitement.

No more long distance kills, no more n1ks locked into your 6 doing ufo manouvers... why? Because they have to keep track of you. The big red billboard is THE sole reason why people stay on your 6 after you do a hard manouver, they can re-acquire the target in a split second. It gives the pilot an omniscient view. The laser range finders are THE sole reason why long range spraying is so common and in fact, THE preffered way to kill from any angle if you have "the weapon".

AH is a great sim, being completely screwed by icons, which turn it into a harder FM Fighter Ace. IMO, any effort HTC puts into modeling a plane/gun ballistics, etc is completely wasted because of those icons.


[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 03-07-2001).]

[Westy]

 I would enthusiastically be in favour of the range readout being dropped entirely from enemy icons.
 Range for friendlies is good to have for formation purposes.

-Westy

(...into the wind again)