Author Topic: BAGRAM 747 CRASH  (Read 2213 times)

Offline Nypsy

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Re: BAGRAM 747 CRASH
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2013, 10:21:37 AM »
From NYCAviation:

National Air Flight 102: A Preliminary Report

ANALYSIS

Informal analysis: (based on observations, assumptions, and deductions). Note, investigators will be reviewing all evidence, and the conclusions will be more soundly reasoned than this analysis based solely on the video footage.

The fact that the gear was down indicates that the crew was experiencing problems immediately after takeoff that focused their attention elsewhere. From the video, you can see the aircraft’s speed was deteriorating. There is a transient smoke stream from the engines just before the stall, which is an indication of an acceleration of the engine core’s RPM – the crew were likely firewalling the throttles. There was a light dip of the left wing at the beginning of the stall. The pilot likely countered with right rudder, a correct but excessive input that caused the aircraft to enter a spin to the right. At this point, airspeed appears to be nearly undetectable but probably around 100 knots.

Swept wing aircraft, especially ones with high angles of sweep like the 747, pitch up at the last moment of a stall before the nose drops and airspeed is recovered. In the video, the nose does not drop until the aircraft is on its side and rapidly loosing altitude. Once the aircraft is on a knife-edge, the airflow will cause the vertical stabilizer to weathervane. This brings the nose down. During this time, the right rotation also stops. If there had been an engine failure, the rotation would have continued in the direction of the failed engine. As the wings are brought level, the nose down attitude remains stable through impact. At this point, there are vapor trails from the horizontal stabilizers and wing. This indicates a high pressure differential which is clearly from the high angles of attack on the surfaces.

The crew had a controllability problem that was present from rotation. Pilot training and instinct is to lower the nose if the aircraft is pitching up. This wasn’t possible. To put this aircraft in the position it was would have required excessive nose up elevator or excessive rear Center of Gravity (CG). Since this was a routine flight and the aircraft had not likely had major maintenance causing a critical failure of the flight controls, a rear CG is the likely problem.

This is also indicated on the final moments prior to impact. Had the CG been in the proper location, the nose down pitch would have continued as the CG forward of the wing’s lift would have accelerated towards the earth from gravity while the wing resisted this acceleration due to airflow (drag) on the wing, even with a major failure of the trim or elevator. Just prior to impact, the pitch remains mostly stable, indicating the CG was between the wing and tail, and the weight on each was proportional to the lift being generated. The proportion of the surface area of the wing to tail surface would be equal and inversely proportion of the CG between them. Ie, if the surface area was 70% wing and 30% tail, the CG would be 30% back from the wing, or 70% forward of the tail.

There are many other possibilities, example pilot error. Though this is unlikely, these must be considered until conclusively found otherwise.

Offline LCADolby

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Re: BAGRAM 747 CRASH
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2013, 11:54:59 AM »
Has anyone explored a blocked pitot tube and misread speed indicators?
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Offline eagl

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Re: BAGRAM 747 CRASH
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2013, 05:22:14 PM »
Has anyone explored a blocked pitot tube and misread speed indicators?

That's an airbus trick.   :noid
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Offline Golfer

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Re: BAGRAM 747 CRASH
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2013, 05:29:35 PM »
Has anyone explored a blocked pitot tube and misread speed indicators?

I wouldn't look twice at it. A daytime visual departure with a load of heavy stuff in the back a crew wouldn't pitch to such an extreme angle which is significantly beyond any normal deck angle for departure. This crew had a problem that they might not have know about until potentially even after the airplane rotated if it was a load shift.

Ernie Gann wrote about this happening to him in Fate is the Hunter. That day a crew member in the back moving the heavy stuff by hand saved the day. No such luck with MRAPs if something similar happens to be true.  A mis-set trim is unlikely because of a configuration warning I would expect this airplane to have.  A flight control failure, runaway trim which you couldn't interrupt (shouldn't happen) or some other failure could be plausible. Either way I wouldn't expect this to be the result of purely a lack of stick and rudder skills.

The Navy lost a COD airplane some years ago to a load shift incident occurring during the cat shot. There is video and it's not too dissimilar from this accident.

Offline rpm

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Re: BAGRAM 747 CRASH
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2013, 06:00:33 PM »
The Navy lost a COD airplane some years ago to a load shift incident occurring during the cat shot. There is video and it's not too dissimilar from this accident.
9 soles lost.
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: BAGRAM 747 CRASH
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2013, 06:24:41 PM »
All the watercooler talk yesterday was saying it was a shift in weight load due to improper cargo securing.  Heaviest cargo in 747s goes closer up front, infront of the wing spar, and if it isn't secured it'll cause a domino effect on climbout that shoves everything aftward.  By the time the pilots realised what was happening it was too late, all their cargo had shifted tail-most.  The video cam is lucky to of been at the right place and time to catch it. 

This is extremely unfortunate but nobody wants to rush and conclude before the official report is done, because if the rumors are correct that it was an improperly secured load (extremely common out of Bagram) then you know it was human error and someone caused this accident, either intentionaly or negligently, but ultimatley that more than a few people didn't do their job and this could fo been avoided.

And a very thurough report will follow, all 7 lives lost onboard were Americans.
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Offline FTJR

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Re: BAGRAM 747 CRASH
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2013, 08:32:23 PM »
RIP to the crew, very sad.


That's an airbus trick.   :noid


Not really
Birgenair Flight 301 was a flight chartered by Turkish-managed Birgenair partner Alas Nacionales ("National Wings") from Puerto Plata in the Dominican Republic to Frankfurt, Germany via Gander, Canada and Berlin, Germany. On 6 February 1996, the Boeing 757-225 operating the route crashed shortly after take-off from Puerto Plata's Gregorio Luperón International Airport.[1][2] There were no survivors at all. The cause was a pitot tube blocked by wasp nests that were built in it as it had been some time since the plane had been on any flights and it was not covered up properly when stored.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgenair_Flight_301
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Offline eagl

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Re: BAGRAM 747 CRASH
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2013, 08:53:15 PM »
9 soles lost.

One crewmember only had one foot?   :uhoh
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Offline rpm

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Re: BAGRAM 747 CRASH
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2013, 09:11:50 PM »
Souls. My bad.
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Offline eagl

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Re: BAGRAM 747 CRASH
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2013, 01:21:56 AM »
I get confused easily so it's all ok.  Caveman pilot, that's me.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: BAGRAM 747 CRASH
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2013, 08:12:24 AM »
One crewmember only had one foot?   :uhoh

If they only find 1, 9 are lost I guess...
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Offline GScholz

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Re: BAGRAM 747 CRASH
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2013, 09:05:34 AM »
That's an airbus trick.   :noid


Indeed. We all  know Boeing instruments work on magic, not something so crude as Pitot tubes and static ports...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgenair_Flight_301

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroper%C3%BA_Flight_603
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Offline eagl

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Re: BAGRAM 747 CRASH
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2013, 03:43:29 PM »
Indeed. We all  know Boeing instruments work on magic, not something so crude as Pitot tubes and static ports...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgenair_Flight_301

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroper%C3%BA_Flight_603

The magic in boeing products is that the pilot flies the plane, not HAL.  Makes it more likely (in my opinion and experience) that a pilot used to actually flying the plane will be able to recognize avionics malfunctions and revert to good old stick and rudder skills learned early on in flight training.  No matter what the airspeed indicator says, good old known pitch and power settings can save the day when dealing with almost any pitot/static malfunction.  Unless HAL is interfering...
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Offline GScholz

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Re: BAGRAM 747 CRASH
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2013, 05:42:16 PM »
Unfortunately reality differs with your opinion. Boeings are just as automated as Airbuses these days. The only real difference is the fly-by-wire system. It's the autopilot systems that has killed people in planes from both manufacturers, not the flight controls.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: BAGRAM 747 CRASH
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2013, 05:50:02 PM »
However, you hit upon an important problem with modern aviation; the pilots lose their basic flying skills. I think it would be a good idea to require that civilian pilots get some sort of minimum number of hours every year in basic stick-and-rudder aircraft. Preferably something crude and mechanical that they need to work to fly.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."