Author Topic: Bombers... Change?  (Read 1505 times)

Offline Bruv119

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15678
      • http://www.thefewsquadron.co.uk
Re: Bombers... Change?
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2013, 04:23:39 PM »
I routinely kill 2 out of 3 bombers in a formation with a P51 or spit.

You have to set up the pass properly, have lots of energy over them and shoot at wing tips or engine fires.  It does surprise me that 50 cal is superior for killing buffs than 20mm hispano or taters.  

Just line up the right hand drone so when it explodes the formation doesn't warp.  Open up from 800 on the first target quickly switch to the lead drone and kill him from much closer.  

With the 262 you can even get all 3 in one slashing attack.  

also take into account whether he has dropped already, chasing rtb buffs with height can be difficult because of their extra speed.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 04:28:42 PM by Bruv119 »
The Few ***
F.P.H

Offline Ninthmessiah

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 143
Re: Bombers... Change?
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2013, 02:31:41 AM »
 It does surprise me that 50 cal is superior for killing buffs than 20mm hispano or taters.  

That may be because convergence is less of an issue on buffs.  When you blast an La7 outside convergence, your bullets are striking several different parts on opposite sides of the plane.  When you blast buffs outside convergence, your still hitting the wing.

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: Bombers... Change?
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2013, 02:41:35 AM »
You should post your film of shooting down Tyrannis' buffs from a couple of years ago

I watched that before I had ever even gone online with AH and I'd consider it the perfect example of what you are describing here

Sadly, don't have those films anymore.

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline USRanger

  • AvA Staff Member
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10325
      • BoP Home
Re: Bombers... Change?
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2013, 04:04:36 AM »
I don't know what would need changed, but I don't ever recall ever seeing any WW2 guncam footage of a single fighter shooting down 2-3 bombers in a single pass or under 30 seconds.Actually, I've never seen a fighter shoot down 2 bombers in any film at all.

Maybe make the buffs a tougher but also give them a variable gun convergence that is, say, between .7 to 1.2k that is randomly chosen by the game each time you take off.  This will make it a lil' more realistic in simulating real gunners.  The buff player would have to work a lil' instead of at finding the sweet spot each sortie, instead of knowing all his gunners are olympian shooters.  I fly buffs quite a bit & would personally love to have this fun challenge of "feeling your gunners out", whether pre- or during combat.  Anybody each, after thinking about it, think this might be more fun for the buff pilot by adding some variance to each buff flight?  I'd love the challenge.  :joystick:
Axis vs Allies Staff Member
☩ JG11 Sonderstaffel ☩
Flying 'Black[Death] 10' ☩JG11☩

Only the Proud, Only the Strong Ne Desit Virtus

Offline Pand

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 901
      • Pand's Fighter Wing
Re: Bombers... Change?
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2013, 08:46:23 AM »
The bombers are modeled correctly.  If you are taking out heavy bombers regularly in 1 pass with 6 x .50 I want to fly with you.
It's all about where you place your rounds... even 4 x .50s can quite easily get it done.

Regards,

Pandemonium
"HORDE not HOARD. Unless someone has a dragon sitting on top of a bunch of La7s somewhere." -80hd

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Re: Bombers... Change?
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2013, 09:07:42 AM »
I don't know what would need changed, but I don't ever recall ever seeing any WW2 guncam footage of a single fighter shooting down 2-3 bombers in a single pass or under 30 seconds.Actually, I've never seen a fighter shoot down 2 bombers in any film at all.
Most gun cameras were, so far as I understand, set to go when the trigger was pulled and stop when it was released.  Is that correct?

Certainly multi-kill sorties against heavies were not the norm, but they did happen.  Wasn't there a German who got seven B-17s/B-24s in one sortie and a Japanese who got four B-29s in one sortie?
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Online lyric1

  • Skinner Team
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10687
Re: Bombers... Change?
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2013, 12:17:19 PM »
I was reading somewhere and I'll try to post me referance but the Germans decided it took about 20-30 20mm rounds and 5 30mm rounds to bring down a b17.

Read this I think it might be helpful.

US Air Combat Records WW II.pdf

Offline shotgunneeley

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1055
Re: Bombers... Change?
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2013, 10:58:20 PM »
Maybe make the buffs a tougher but also give them a variable gun convergence that is, say, between .7 to 1.2k that is randomly chosen by the game each time you take off.  This will make it a lil' more realistic in simulating real gunners.

How would that be more realistic? Realistic would be a variable convergence that fixated on the target and changed in relation to target's position. A gunner in different position/plane would be firing at the most convenient target in his field of view, not some predetermined point that may or may not contain an enemy plane.

I have no idea how accurate the remote control/powered turrets were in real life compared to what we have in game (did they compensate for plane vector, wind resistance, plane vibrations, recoil, etc.?). I am sure the accuracy of handheld machine guns were far less accurate than the remote controlled/powered turrets and should be modeled as such. I'd favor reducing the accuracy and reaction time of firing all guns to more real life standards if applicable (i.e. a 1 second delay in aiming and firing the other positions depending on the player's point of view). To counterbalance this, give the player the ability to adjust the convergence on the fly with a turn of the mouse wheel (e.g. 88mm gun) ranging from 150 to 650 yards. Again, the convergence settings would be given a small delay so as to not make it an instantaneous adjustment. Accuracy will be dependent on the convergence setting (i.e. d150 will have far less variation in the spread of all firing guns than at d650). This adds another variable for the bomber gunner to consider and requires the gunner to give extra lead in predicting where the target will be for the optimum defense.
"Lord, let us feel pity for Private Jenkins, and sorrow for ourselves, and all the angel warriors that fall. Let us fear death, but let it not live within us. Protect us, O Lord, and be merciful unto us. Amen"-from FALLEN ANGELS by Walter Dean Myers

Game ID: ShtGn (Inactive), Squad: 91st BG

Offline Zacherof

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3996
Re: Bombers... Change?
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2013, 11:03:25 PM »
By far the easier plane set tontake outin one pass is the G4M.
Opened at 1k and used rudder to slide from target to target.

Granted being in a p38 made it easier
In game name Xacherof
USN Sea Bee
**ELITE**
I am a meat popsicle

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: Bombers... Change?
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2013, 03:25:05 AM »
Bomber pilots are getting smarter and game adjustments make it tougher. You certainly do not need to have the game adjusted for you, but you need to adjust to the game.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline EsmeII

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Bombers... Change?
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2013, 08:19:30 AM »
If we're talking realism, how many bomber pilots were known for their gunnery skills? The lack of Otto (automated defensive gunnery) in AH puts a ridiculously heavy workload on bomber pilots, especially when on final approach to target.  How many times do you think the bomb-aimer had to leave their post when seconds from drop to man a gun?

As a bomber specialist, I want to fly the durned plane first and foremost - handling the bomb-aiming is interesting, but HAVING to handle gunnery as well just hands the advantage to the fighter pilots. It's beyonfd belief that in a plane with 5-7 crew members that the only one who'd spot approaching enemy would be the pilot. Even having Otto just call out that they can see incoming enemy (the o'clock plus high, low or level) would be a help even if Otto didn't actually fire a shot. Best of all would be that, PLUS rather inaccurate Otto that could be turned on or off by the pilot, and retaining the ability for the pilot to jump to a gun position and have a go if they wish to.

Note that Otto gunnery would be using up ammo, so there'd be a tradeoff between an occasional lucky hit from Otto against ammo depletion. It'd also mean that we wouldn't have to use some of the crazy and unrealistic flying tricks that are commonly necessary in order to survive bomber sorties in the MA, and might also encourage more folk who aren't great shots to have a go flying bombers.

Dotdar should also be visible only to those on the ground, IMO. This would force fighter types to fly defensive patrols a bit more, and make it harder for them to home in on buffs so quickly.

Also, low-level flak needs to have a wake-up time, and be less good at tracking objects with high angular velocity.  At high alt, it seems to be about right, but at low level, it's so murderous that the kind of low-level raids commonly flown by Do17's in the early war are a darned sight more dangerous than they should be.

Next - all this precision-bombing nonsense to close fields - it'd be very welcome indeed if dropping bombs on fields produced cratering that could effectively prevent planes from taking off.  Perhaps a bulldozer could be added to the vehicles that, if driven slowly enough over a crater would smooth it out.  Have this in addition to allowing the pinpoint stuff, sure, but scattering bombs on the runway should have SOME effect other than occasionally catching an unfortunate spawning plane.


I'd prefer the Me163 to be removed from arena play altogether, as it just allows fighter pilots to be damned lazy, and pandering to the "I wanna kill something quickly" attitude overmuch has been the worst feature of all the WW2 combat flight sims I've seen.


Off on a tangent - howsabout awarding perkies to recce planes for photoing enemy ships, bases and strats and RTBing? You'd need to have a recce loadout for suitable planes, of course.

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
Re: Bombers... Change?
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2013, 09:37:08 AM »
EsmeII,
AH is an online multiplayer game. The "otto" function you are asking for is called a human gunner. If HTC will decide to allow more than one gunner on board (perhaps in the drones) I would heartily support it. This game should have as little AI as possible.

Dot dar only helps to find the lone bomber that is milk-running a field/strats, which is good. Most of the time I spent flying is when all base dar tower within 3 sectors look like a burning flaccid man-part and bombers are being called out on local channel by fighters in the air.

163 is just as lazy as putting a bomber on auto-climb, going to get the groceries, returning when it is flying on the edge of space and headed towards the strats - only takes less time. Killing my dar-bar is the most painful thing you can do to my types. It should not be done easily with just some investment of auto-climb time and a bag of groceries.

As for bombing the runway - many WWII airfields did not even have a proper runway. Disabling a field by cratering it will be stupidly easy and contribute nothing to the game - quite the opposite. If you want a use for carpet bombing a base - ask for an increased blast radius with a very low damage inside the extended annulus. This way carpet bombing a field will kill acks, planes on the ground and damage GVs parked in the middle of the field (probably will not kill anything heavily armored). I have no problem with killing planes on the ground with bombs, it is both realistic and part of the game where planes taking off from a field under attack do so at a high risk. Damage to GVs on the field is good too because I have GVs sitting on the tarmac and exiting when they take damage which does not make them immediately explode.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Butcher

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5323
Re: Bombers... Change?
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2013, 09:44:49 AM »
DO bombers need an adjustment? fly against 999000 and find out - imagine if he flew at 15k and not 3k.

Nope buffs do not need an adjustment, either learn to gun or learn to attack better.
JG 52

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Re: Bombers... Change?
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2013, 09:54:18 AM »
re: Low level AA fire.

Anybody have that bit by Closterman in which he loses an entire squadron of Tempests to low level AA fire in a single pass when they attack a German airfield?
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline caldera

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6504
Re: Bombers... Change?
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2013, 09:56:20 AM »
DO bombers need an adjustment? fly against 999000 and find out - imagine if he flew at 15k and not 3k.

Nope buffs do not need an adjustment, either learn to gun or learn to attack better.

Any bomber is easier to kill at 15k than 3k.  Bombers hugging the deck make high angle, high speed attacks very dangerous for the attacker.
Snuggie - voted "Sexiest Man Alive" for the entire Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere!