Author Topic: Spanish Civil War week?  (Read 2307 times)

Offline Mister Fork

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Re: Spanish Civil War week?
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2013, 11:27:47 PM »
How about two fighters aside and the He-111?  I would strongly suggest limiting the bomb options to nothing over 250 kg.

The Ju87 was used. It should be included but both sides.

How about I-16 and B239 vs Bf109 and HurriI?
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Offline Easyscor

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Re: Spanish Civil War week?
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2013, 05:19:42 AM »
If we could get approval of skins for the I-16, Emil, HE-111 and Ki-67 subbing for the SB-2 (sigh, yeah, I know) ... and someone to do a Spanish terrain centering on Madrid, perhaps ... could be doable and a change of pace.

About the terrain:

A workable AvA terrain of Spain would need to be compressed by 4 or 5 factors for game play. It's a large country and flight distances at even 1 : 2.05 are quite long. To put it another way, at a scale of 1 : 2.05, Spain with Portugal and enough surrounding water bodies to be recognizable as Spain, won't fit in a 256 terrain.

A very long time ago, before we had the I-16, I skinned a Val, a Kate and a C-47 in faux Spanish livery and they ended up in avasml. The idea was that they could sub for planes at the start of the war when both sides used the same planes without changing their markings. As has been pointed out, we don't have the planeset for the SCW. The custom skins are still there as the default skins; even the C-47's (Ju52) tail markings work, and they haven't been used in the four or five years since I made them.  :huh :lol

That said, I think one of Ranger's terrains would be more realistic with the suggested planeset.
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Offline Arlo

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Re: Spanish Civil War week?
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2013, 10:22:02 AM »
About the terrain:

A workable AvA terrain of Spain would need to be compressed by 4 or 5 factors for game play. It's a large country and flight distances at even 1 : 2.05 are quite long. To put it another way, at a scale of 1 : 2.05, Spain with Portugal and enough surrounding water bodies to be recognizable as Spain, won't fit in a 256 terrain.

A very long time ago, before we had the I-16, I skinned a Val, a Kate and a C-47 in faux Spanish livery and they ended up in avasml. The idea was that they could sub for planes at the start of the war when both sides used the same planes without changing their markings. As has been pointed out, we don't have the planeset for the SCW. The custom skins are still there as the default skins; even the C-47's (Ju52) tail markings work, and they haven't been used in the four or five years since I made them.  :huh :lol

That said, I think one of Ranger's terrains would be more realistic with the suggested planeset.

An SCW terrain need not model all of Spain anymore than a Pacific one need model the whole Pacific ocean. It all depends on the battle. The Siege of Madrid carried on throughout the war.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oAv9Ie85jo&feature=player_detailpage




Offline Easyscor

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Re: Spanish Civil War week?
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2013, 10:53:10 AM »
For that setup, no new terrain needed. twinrivr, avawintr or avasumer should work fine.
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Offline Arlo

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Offline Perrine

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Re: Spanish Civil War week?
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2013, 01:34:18 AM »
Anyone got actual specs on Bf-109B-2?  This is most likely the variant that saw action during the civil war.


also, i'm guessing the leap in performance from 109B to 109E is like jumping from 109E to 109K.



Offline Arlo

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Re: Spanish Civil War week?
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2013, 10:32:33 AM »
"While sources vary on the number and type, most agree that 130-140 Messerschmitt Bf 109’s served in Spain: approximately 4 prototypes, 40+ Berthas, 5 Claras, 35 Doras, and 44 Emils."

Messerschmitt Bf-109 Part II

    Bf 109 types used in Spain

    Bf 109 V-3: This machine was quite distinctive, and had, in addition to the two Mg 17 above the engine cowling that would become standard on all Bf 109s, an engine-mounted Mg 17 (or possibly an Mg FF 20 mm cannon) firing through a cut-down propellor boss. The wheels were also larger than on subsequent aircraft, necessitating bulges on the upper surface of the wing to house the retracted landing gear.

    Bf 109 V-4, V-5 and V-6: Much less is known about these aircraft, and few photographs seem to exist, but they are all thought to have had the same general arrangement, with armament confined to two Mg 17s mounted above the engine. These aircraft served as the pre-production versions of the Bf 109 B. All lacked the under-wing oil cooler found on later prototypes and production aircraft.

    Bf 109 A: Fitted with Junkers Jumo 210 D engine. Armament consisted of two Mg 17 guns above the engine cowling. Fitted with a 2-blade fixed-pitch wooden propeller, oil cooler mounted under the port wing, behind the middle fo the chord. The first aircraft had spinners that were slightly smaller than the forward cowling, so exposing small annular air intakes around the propellor. The seams between fuselage panels may have been taped, since they are not clearly visible on photographs. Wing slats were full-length.

    Bf 109 B: The fixed pitch propeller was replaced by a variable-pitch Hamilton propeller (this was also associated with the ability to fit an Mg 17 mounted between the engine blocks, but it is unclear how often this was fitted). Three large cooling slots were cut into the top and one into the bottom of the forward cowling to increase gun and engine cooling. The underwing oil cooler was also repositioned slightly further forward on later machines. Shorter wing slats were also introduced during the production of the B series.

    Bf 109 C: Fitted with Junkers Jumo 210 Ga engine, which had direct fuel injection (giving increased high-altitude performance). Armament increased to four Mg 17s by the addition of one Mg 17 in each wing (the muzzle of which was within the wing). The exhaust ejector stubs projected from the sides of the cowling rather than being flush as in previous models. The position of the oxygen filler and electrical socket on the starboard side of the aircraft was also moved from under the cockpit to further back on the fuselage

    Bf 109 D: Reverted to the Junkers Jumo 210 D engine, but had the additional wing guns. A new tailwheel design (without the "scissor" link found on earlier aircraft) was introduced, 'though it is unclear whether this was a characteristic of all D versions, or was introduced during the life of the D series.

    Bf 109 E-1: Powered by the Daimler-Benz DB 610 engine, driving a three-blade propellor. An entirely new nose shape resulted from the installation of this engine, as well as new under-wing radiators. There were numerous other minor alterations which mean that Bf 109 Es are quite distinctive from most angles.

    Bf 109 E-3: As the Bf 109 E-3, but with the wing guns replaced with 20mm Mg FF canon, which had muzzles that projected beyond the leading edge of the wing. Laureau gives 6•107 as a Bf 109 E-4, although this may simply be a misprint (The E-4 had a redesigned canopy with less rounded framing to the windscreen).

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/between-wars-1918-1939/spanish-civil-war-nationalist-air-force-25138.html

~~~~~~~~~~

Heinkel He-111

    Like a number of German aircraft which were designed and built in the 1930s, the He 111 was planned from the beginning for a dual-purpose role. The first was in a legitimate civil capacity, during which the engines and airframe would be developed to good standards of reliability, or modified as necessary to attain such high standards. The second role was for military usage by the Luftwaffe which, at the period when a number of Germany's most successful wartime aircraft were being designed and/or developed, was still a clandestine organisation. The prototype - an all-metal low-wing monoplane powered by two 447kW BMW VI in-line engines - flew for the first time on 24 February 1935. The wings were of semi-elliptical planform, fitted with hydraulically operated trailing-edge flaps, the tailwheel-type retractable landing gear also being hydraulically actuated. Very clean in appearance, the prototype (in bomber configuration) was able to accommodate an internal bomb load of 1,000kg, and was armed with three machine-guns in nose, dorsal and ventral positions. Flight testing proved that, like some British bomber aircraft of the period, its performance equalled or even bettered that of contemporary fighters.

    The second prototype was completed as a civil transport and was handed over to Luft-Hansa following the termination of early testing. Subsequently, this aircraft reverted to being used by the Luftwaffe for secret high-altitude reconnaissance missions. Many such missions were flown prior to the outbreak of World War II, both by military and civil aircraft, so that long before wartime operational missions were flown, the Luftwaffe had acquired very detailed documentation of a vast number of important targets. The fourth prototype was completed as a civil airliner with accommodation for ten passengers in two cabins. Named Dresden, it was delivered to Luft-Hansa on 10 January 1936 and given the full glare of press publicity. Six production airliners, He 111C named Breslau, Karlsruhe, Koln, Konigsberg, Leipzig, and Numberg, enured service from the summer of 1936.

    He 111B-1 production bombers began to enter Luftwaffe service in late 1936 and, like many German military aircraft of that period, were blooded first in the Spanish Civil War, gaining valuable experience. The first two mass-production versions, He 111 E and He 111 F experienced great success during the Spanish Civil War, where they served with the Condor Legion as fast bombers, able to outrun many of the fighters sent against them. In the case of the He 111 it proved somewhat misleading: since its performance was superior to that of opposing fighter aircraft, it could operate unescorted.

Junkers Ju-87 Stuka Part II

    Among the many German aircraft designs that participated in the Legion Condor and Spanish Civil War, a single Ju 87 A-0 (the V4 prototype) was allocated serial number 29-1 and was assigned to the VJ/88, the experimental Staffel of the Legion's fighter wing. The aircraft was secretly loaded onto the Spanish ship Usaramo and departed Hamburg harbor on the night of 1 August 1936, arriving in Cadiz five days later. The only known information pertaining to its combat career in Spain is that it was piloted by Unteroffizier Herman Beuer, and took part in the Nationalist offensive against Bilbao in 1937. Presumably the aircraft was then secretly returned to Germany.

    In January 1938 three Ju 87 As arrived. Several problems became evident - the spatted undercarriage sank into muddy airfield surfaces, and the spats were temporarily removed. In addition, the maximum 500 kg (1,100 lb) bomb load could only be carried if the gunner vacated his seat, and the bomb load was therefore restricted to 250 kg (550 lb). These aircraft supported the Nationalist forces and carried out anti-shipping missions until they returned to Germany in October 1938. The A-1s were replaced by five Ju 87 B-1s. With the war coming to an end they found little to do and were used to support Heinkel He 111s attacking Republican positions. As the Ju 87 A-0 had been, the B-1s were returned discreetly to the Reich. The experience of the Spanish Civil War had been invaluable - air and ground crews perfected their skills, and equipment was evaluated under combat conditions. Although no Ju 87s had been lost in Spain, however, the Ju 87 had not been tested against numerous and well-coordinated fighter opposition, and this lesson was to be learned later at great cost to the Stuka crews.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/between-wars-1918-1939/spanish-civil-war-nationalist-air-force-25138.html

Regarding the I-16

There were 422 I-16 aircrafts sent from USSR (129 x type 5, 157 x type 6, 136 x type 10 and 4 x UTI-4 trainers). These aircraft were shipped out but in 1938, frankist warships made this hazardous so French ports were accepting the Soviet cargos which then went via road or rail to the Spanish border. The French government periodically closed its borders to arms shipments and planes were lost in transit. Spanish ports received 276 I-16s, more coming through France but many stayed in that country, caught up on border issues. One estimation of the numbers of I-16's that actually arrived in Spain is at about 350 but it's broadly accepted that only about 293 made it. (I-16s in Spain were serialled randomly). The Spanish government tried to organize the manufacture of I-16s, at a factory, SAF-15, in Alicante. Up to the end of 1938, only 4 planes had been made. These were type 10 copies but with only 2 machine guns. 10 more were made up until the end of the war but none of these machines saw combat.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/between-wars-1918-1939/spanish-civil-war-republican-air-force-fare-25733.html

Offline captain1ma

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Re: Spanish Civil War week?
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2013, 01:20:27 PM »
Anyone got actual specs on Bf-109B-2?  This is most likely the variant that saw action during the civil war.


also, i'm guessing the leap in performance from 109B to 109E is like jumping from 109E to 109K.



based on wikipedia--about 400hp. give or take

Offline cohofly

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Re: Spanish Civil War week?
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2013, 02:51:03 PM »
If we are just going to run the I-16 against the 109E and use HE-111 for both. what makes this any different than an early Russian front campaign?
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