Using the TBM-3 in Coral Sea setups

[Arlo]

Ok then. Lets see your film. I'll adjust my speed argument if you prove that the TBMs over didn't reach over 500 in their dive from 20K.

I told you the film viewer isn't 100% accurate when showing you the other guy's airspeed, I believe

I'll do you one better. You've flown a TBM at least once in game haven't you? Offline, choose a terrain with fleets.
Now grab a TBM and climb to 20k. When you get within visual range of the fleet you are attacking, dive at full
speed to an indicated air speed of 520 mph. If still in one piece at that speed, do what it takes to slow back to
drop speed and make your attack. Let me know how you do and if you still feel incensed about the unfairness
of the TBMs in the frame.  

[Arlo]

I beg to differ. The Axis battle plan for frame 3 had all of the D3A rearming to regain their bomb then launching on their second sortie to attack the surviving allied carriers. This became impossible after both the Shokaku and Zuikaku were sunk by allied torpedo bombers, who blew past the defenders(at a greater than historically accurate speed) and dropped torps. The very outcome of frame 3 could have been different had the Allies been in a better representative of the TBD.

Here's something the film viewer is accurate about - the TBMs having to slow down drastically to make their attack.
This would basically require a lot more than just chopping throttle - some circular maneuvering is involved here.
It also records who could and who could not drop their torps (whether due to position or speed). Having said that,
I've never seen KN hampered by sticking to the same exact tactics an event designer hoped they would mimic. 

[Arlo]

.... the TBMs made it to our boats even when under attack from more then 3 D3As at a time.

The argument for historical accuracy has been surrendered, hasn't it? 

[Arlo]

Yeah Devil, that would be ME! LOL, I was pw'd by the unbelievable ack I had to fly through, and whilst trying to scrub speed was blacking out very low to the water. Never a good combination. I pulled a little too hard and spun out about 5 feet asl. Was just too eager to get pointed at the boat before I blacked out again, or got blasted by one of the annoying meatballs buzzing around like a swarm of angry gnats.

Anyways, I had a blast (no pun intended), regardless of the outcome.

EDIT: regarding our dive speed: I came in at approx 450-475 (will check my film to verify and correct if I am wrong) and was backing off throttle and giving it hard rudder because she was moaning like a $5 rhymes-with-shore. Still surprised I kept all my control surfaces intact.

South was my wingman and flew behind me into the target. I made my approach at less than 450

[ImADot]

Cactus sank the Shokaku in an SBD.  There were two waves of SBD's ahead of us.  Did none of the other SBD's get a hit?

The 325th found the CV and called in the position, then we hit it with three bombs from our SBDs.

[CAP1]

The 325th found the CV and called in the position, then we hit it with three bombs from our SBDs.

 and imadot died a glorious cartoon death trying to stave off a VERY angry/determined a6m2 pilot from shooting down our sbd........

[Devil 505]

Some of you feel that bringing in our Attack at 20k was gaming the game, well it wasnt against the rules, or Poppy and I wouldnt have brought them in from that alt. The whole idea was to take advantage of both the TBM and SBD's superior diving ability, and blow by your defenders, and get ords on your CV groups. Our objectives were to sink your ships. We overloaded our Attack, and brought them in 4 waves spaced approx. 4-5 mins apart, with approx 11-15 attackers (mix TBM SBD) per wave, per CV group. This was intended to Shred the Axis' defense. We met our objectives. If something "goes against the spirit of FSO" is that an infraction of the stated rules?? I personally dont see that the Plan of Attack which Poppy and I came up with as "going against the spirit of FSO". Im sorry that some feel this added "insult to injury" it was only meant to injure LOL.
Respectfully
Carver  

I don't think you taking your TBMs to 20k is "Gaming the game". You were within the rules in doing so, and I don't blame you or any other TBM squad (even VF-17) for doing so. I'm using your actions though to illustrate the gross advantage the TBM gives the Allies in this setup, with the intent of making FUTURE setups both more balanced and historically accurate.

Cactus sank the Shokaku in an SBD.  There were two waves of SBD's ahead of us.  Did none of the other SBD's get a hit?

I wasn't over the Shokaku, so I didn't see the exact series of events there. I'm going by what Stampf (Flight lead for Shokaku defense) told me about the attack there. Again, 20k TBMs dropped after blowing through defenders, I don't know if they hit anything, but is seems the Shokaku experienced the same type of coordinated attack as the Zuikaku, and the same result.

The 325th found the CV and called in the position, then we hit it with three bombs from our SBDs.

See above.

[Triton28]

The 325th found the CV and called in the position, then we hit it with three bombs from our SBDs.

Seems to me the SBD was the nemesis of the Shokaku.

[cohofly]

The 325th found the CV and called in the position, then we hit it with three bombs from our SBDs.

The lone scout disco'd midway into his mission and "fields were closed for the night". Great job in finding her 325th <S>.

[Arlo]

(even VF-17)

Do you have issues with VF-17? Care to share what they are since this is apparently a public show? 

[Stampf]

The attack on the Shokoku was very well done...and plane variants aside (which I won't discuss here)...actually quite historically accurate, in some regards.

Single and double plane attacks at low altitude, while mostly foiled, succeeded in making a large part of the defensive CAP look foolish.  The axis defenders were throwing entire squadrons into wave top chases against one or two attackers.  Axis range communications were unbearable, unprofessional, unrelenting and resulted in utter chaos over the fleet.  It was laughable at times, and impossible to even remotely kommand the battle.  The outcome of the attack on the Shokoku in other words... was more complex than simply the aircraft involved.

Even so...it looked like we had carried the day, and that she would survive...and then that last high group appeared.  The few remaining defenders at altitude simply could not stop them from making their attacks.  Not fast enough and if they pushed it...simply shedded control surfaces, and died horribly in the ocean.  Yes there is a current aircraft void in aces high...that makes some set ups rather untenable...this is one of them...For sure.

However,...Victory can always be found.  Over the Shokoku...the Allies had discipline.  The Axis did not.  I'll take discipline over chaos...in any aircraft...any day.



 

[Arlo]

The attack on the Shokoku was very well done...and plane variants aside (which I won't discuss here)...actually quite historically accurate, in some regards.

Single and double plane attacks at low altitude, while mostly foiled, succeeded in making a large part of the defensive CAP look foolish.  The axis defenders were throwing entire squadrons into wave top chases against one or two attackers.  Axis range communications were unbearable, unprofessional, unrelenting and resulted in utter chaos over the fleet.  It was laughable at times, and impossible to even remotely kommand the battle.  The outcome of the attack on the Shokoku in other words... was more complex than simply the aircraft involved.

Even so...it looked like we had carried the day, and that she would survive...and then that last high group appeared.  The few remaining defenders at altitude simply could not stop them from making their attacks.  Not fast enough and if they pushed it...simply shedded control surfaces, and died horribly in the ocean.  Yes there is a current aircraft void in aces high...that makes some set ups rather untenable...this is one of them...For sure.

However,...Victory can always be found.  Over the Shokoku...the Allies had discipline.  The Axis did not.  I'll take discipline over chaos...in any aircraft...any day.



 

Best post in the thread.

[Devil 505]

Do you have issues with VF-17? Care to share what they are since this is apparently a public show?  

No issue at all. Just want to add extra emphasis for your benefit. VF-17 is a top notch squad both in the MA and special events. Truly a respected enemy and trusted ally, depending on who's on which side.

[Arlo]

No issue at all. Just want to add extra emphasis for your benefit. VF-17 is a top notch squad both in the MA and special events. Truly a respected enemy and trusted ally, depending on who's on which side.

Glad to hear that. Now, since the vitriol in this thread has nothing to do with personal dislikes may I humbly suggest less public displays of 'this is just so unfair' when being frustrated over the other side doing better in a frame or entire event and more 'we lived up to the ideals of those we honored, next time we'll recall our mistakes and do better.' We had a great deal of fun flying I-16s against your 109s in the previous event, even though the likelihood of either scoring a great deal of kills on higher and faster 109s or winning a single frame was statistically against us. I was excited that my virtual pilot survived all three frames and managed to get a kill on a 110 and several assists on other models.

Banzai, brave samurai pilots.   

[CAP1]

The attack on the Shokoku was very well done...and plane variants aside (which I won't discuss here)...actually quite historically accurate, in some regards.

Single and double plane attacks at low altitude, while mostly foiled, succeeded in making a large part of the defensive CAP look foolish.  The axis defenders were throwing entire squadrons into wave top chases against one or two attackers.  Axis range communications were unbearable, unprofessional, unrelenting and resulted in utter chaos over the fleet.  It was laughable at times, and impossible to even remotely kommand the battle.  The outcome of the attack on the Shokoku in other words... was more complex than simply the aircraft involved.

Even so...it looked like we had carried the day, and that she would survive...and then that last high group appeared.  The few remaining defenders at altitude simply could not stop them from making their attacks.  Not fast enough and if they pushed it...simply shedded control surfaces, and died horribly in the ocean.  Yes there is a current aircraft void in aces high...that makes some set ups rather untenable...this is one of them...For sure.

However,...Victory can always be found.  Over the Shokoku...the Allies had discipline.  The Axis did not.  I'll take discipline over chaos...in any aircraft...any day.



 

 one of the best posts i've read yet.