Using the TBM-3 in Coral Sea setups

[perdue3]

straight from the logs.....


  # of A6M2 used     73
  # of B5N2 used     55
  # of D3A1 used     54
  # of Gunner-Observer used     27

I have counted already, they are wrong. Do not look at the raw logs, they will show take off and landings at T+1 for more/less fuel.

[Devil 505]

straight from the logs.....


  # of A6M2 used     73
  # of B5N2 used     55
  # of D3A1 used     54
  # of Gunner-Observer used     27

How many replaned for any reason?
I counted the attendance of squads assigned B5Ns in frame 3. There are exactly 32 players in B5Ns, no more, no less.

[Arlo]

Do you think I pulled 520 out of my ass? Look at the damn screenshot! It highlighted in red for the hearing impaired.

Calm down, Francis. The film viewer isn't foolproof. I was part of the TBM group and I'm telling you what speed we came in at, per plan.  

[CAP1]

I have counted already, they are wrong. Do not look at the raw logs, they will show take off and landings at T+1 for more/less fuel.

 then ignore the totals, and look at the rest of the numbers. if i'm off on total of b5n's, then i'm off on total of tbm's too.........but the numbers of kills, objects, and ships sunk ain't gonna lie.

 both the tbm and the b5n drivers suffered. giving the b5n to the usn would've done nothing to change the outcome.

[Devil 505]

Calm down, Francis. The film viewer isn't foolproof. I was part of the TBM group and I'm telling you what speed we came in at, per plan.  

Ok then. Lets see your film. I'll adjust my speed argument if you prove that the TBMs over didn't reach over 500 in their dive from 20K.

[Devil 505]

both the tbm and the b5n drivers suffered. giving the b5n to the usn would've done nothing to change the outcome.

I beg to differ. The Axis battle plan for frame 3 had all of the D3A rearming to regain their bomb then launching on their second sortie to attack the surviving allied carriers. This became impossible after both the Shokaku and Zuikaku were sunk by allied torpedo bombers, who blew past the defenders(at a greater than historically accurate speed) and dropped torps. The very outcome of frame 3 could have been different had the Allies been in a better representative of the TBD.

[Fish42]

both the tbm and the b5n drivers suffered. giving the b5n to the usn would've done nothing to change the outcome.

Yes and no. I know the TBMs made it to our boats even when under attack from more then 3 D3As at a time. If they had been B5Ns then they would not have reached the ships from how far out we intercepted ssome of them. The TBMs died after they had dropped and turned away for the most part.

Also the TBMs have far better defensive fire then the B5Ns. A TBD has no lower rear fire and a 303 covering a much more limited arc up top. The D3A could have sat under the tail of a TBD and sawed its tail off with ease.

[cohofly]

I would like to address several points relating to this thread.

I can see Perdue's point in the origianal post. Using the TBM as a sub for the TBD is a big upgrade to the Allies. However, I dont see a satifactory replacement for the Avenger. Unless HTC is going to introduce the TBD, (probably not going to happen) I would imagine that we would keep using the TBM. Unfortunately I dont see using the Kate as a viable replacement for PTO. Sorry.

I have nothing but respect for Pand and Tazz and their squadies, all very good sticks and fine guys to boot. I feel that things may have worked out differently for them had we had a full turnout for Cap of the Lexington. We had 13 Cap total, I had hoped for 20+ but some Squads were short. This happens.

Some of you feel that bringing in our Attack at 20k was gaming the game, well it wasnt against the rules, or Poppy and I wouldnt have brought them in from that alt. The whole idea was to take advantage of both the TBM and SBD's superior diving ability, and blow by your defenders, and get ords on your CV groups. Our objectives were to sink your ships. We overloaded our Attack, and brought them in 4 waves spaced approx. 4-5 mins apart, with approx 11-15 attackers (mix TBM SBD) per wave, per CV group. This was intended to Shred the Axis' defense. We met our objectives. If something "goes against the spirit of FSO" is that an infraction of the stated rules?? I personally dont see that the Plan of Attack which Poppy and I came up with as "going against the spirit of FSO". Im sorry that some feel this added "insult to injury" it was only meant to injure LOL.
Respectfully
Carver  

[pops57]

cohofly you highlight the argument perfectly. Un fortunately not in your favor. Just because you don't want to fly it is not a valid reason not to use an AC that is FAR more correct for a time frame/specific bird in capabilities. The TBD was not capable of diving anywhere near the speeds of a TBM and would not be able to BLOW THROUGH the defenders. Tactics would have to change and the outcome--torpedo sunk ships-- becomes in question. Paint the axis bird and use it --- even then it is 30 mph faster than the TBD was. That blue plane toughness argument is also part of the problem when talking about the TBD as it does not apply--they were slaughtered, had very limited success and were pulled because they were totally outclassed and frankly not even that many left to use. Use the axis bird if you have any pretense of calling it an attempt to be like real conditions for plane performance.

[Nefarious]

Throwing in my 2 cents as a player here... In frame 3 I lead my group of 9 aircraft, 4 TBMs and 5 SBDs to attack the shokaku. All my TBMs were wiped out less than 2k from the CV by D3A defenders while we were in the attack run. Which is under 200' agl and under 200mph.

The SBDs which are dash 5's (not present at coral sea or midway either) dove in and attacked the boats successfully.

[pops57]

Just for info sake I found a site that states the  VNE--velocity never exceed-- of the TBD at 208 and a loaded cruise at 115kts in the overloaded condition used at Midway.

[nooby52]

The TBM I killed made further mistakes by not dropping his torp, then pulling another 180 to get away from the boats. I dounced him at a blistering 280mph, but he was going only 150 in that second turn. I peppered him and he tried to maneuver hard but spun it into the drink.

Yeah Devil, that would be ME! LOL, I was pw'd by the unbelievable ack I had to fly through, and whilst trying to scrub speed was blacking out very low to the water. Never a good combination. I pulled a little too hard and spun out about 5 feet asl. Was just too eager to get pointed at the boat before I blacked out again, or got blasted by one of the annoying meatballs buzzing around like a swarm of angry gnats.

Anyways, I had a blast (no pun intended), regardless of the outcome.

EDIT: regarding our dive speed: I came in at approx 450-475 (will check my film to verify and correct if I am wrong) and was backing off throttle and giving it hard rudder because she was moaning like a $5 rhymes-with-shore. Still surprised I kept all my control surfaces intact.

[Triton28]

I've seen someone claim the  TBD couldn't dive worth a darn.   Anyone got a source about it?   

[Triton28]

I beg to differ. The Axis battle plan for frame 3 had all of the D3A rearming to regain their bomb then launching on their second sortie to attack the surviving allied carriers. This became impossible after both the Shokaku and Zuikaku were sunk by allied torpedo bombers, who blew past the defenders(at a greater than historically accurate speed) and dropped torps. The very outcome of frame 3 could have been different had the Allies been in a better representative of the TBD.

Cactus sank the Shokaku in an SBD.  There were two waves of SBD's ahead of us.  Did none of the other SBD's get a hit?

[Butcher]

From my conclusion of this, Perdue has no argument here - and here is why - the TBD could sustain a 4G dive with a 1,000lb bomb - however it still needs to slow to 110mph to drop its torpedo. Historically no they did not fly in from 20k, I noted one instance TBD's had to fly to hit ships at Lae and had trouble climbing above 7500ft. However dropping to 95mph had one serious flaw with a CV jynxing at 28mph or better - the TBD's had to sit in AAA fire way longer then they were suppose to, with a Stern run on the CV the TBD's were pretty much doomed.

Speed wise - If the TBD can sustain a 4G dive, then alt cap the TBM's at 7500ft.

Battle Damage - Its been noted a few times the TBD can take rugged battle damage, nothing special as the B-17 or TBM however this is not a B5N Kate - it wasn't unarmored - it was still vulnerable due to its slow torpedo drop speed, but this is pretty much it. What happened at Midway was poor communication on the allied part, the F4Fs were met by a wall of Zeros, however anyone who read Shattered Sword can recall the Japanese did NOT have Radar - if we are going to make this an argument then the Axis should NOT have radar. Cruisers with 8 inch guns would Fire in the direction to warn the CAP where to go, basically saying "Fly above your Carrier and if you see ACK start shooting, theres your target".

The Biggest problem in the Coral Sea and Midway was not the TBM flying at 450mph (kidding aside), it was historically the Mk13 torpedo that was a piece of crap before 1943.