262 vs F-86

[Tank-Ace]

262 was hands down the best jet fighter used in WWII in any real numbers. He-162 was better, but theres only a handfull that saw combat service it seems.

And if you actually read into some of the German's projects, a lot of them were quite inspired. Given their limited electronics technology, the Germans were damn brilliant at using analog technology to solve problems.

[Motherland]

262 was hands down the best jet fighter used in WWII in any real numbers. He-162 was better, but theres only a handfull that saw combat service it seems.

And if you actually read into some of the German's projects, a lot of them were quite inspired. Given their limited electronics technology, the Germans were damn brilliant at using analog technology to solve problems.

So was everyone else. Really analog/mechanical technology got really advanced- try wrapping your head around an automatic transmission, beyond basic concepts, and that was invented in the 20/30's.
The Volksjaeger was trash and everyone knew it was trash which is why it was flown by boy scouts. Adolf Galland called it one of the biggest mistakes of the war

Motherland:

just take a look on the Mig-15 and the Sabre. Do they look alike? What about the Messerschmitt P.1101, from '44? Any simmilarities?
Now tell me that the Mig and the Sabre werent massively influenced by the 1101 - im going further, i think they are the 1101 reborn.
Germans had no superior developements? Come on, they had the 1950 fighters on the drawing board in '44!

And the Spitfire and the Yak and the 109 all look similar. The AK-47 looks similar to the STG-44 despite lack of direct lineage. Every bolt action service rifle looked practically identical. Designs from similar time periods hoping to achieve the same thing with similar technology tend to look similar. The F-86 and the MiG-15 were both just jet engines with airplane parts attached to them in concept, there's not a whole lot of room for variation in what their designs could look like, and  really there was about as much as there could be. The Germans were certainly ahead of the curve in certain areas but they were behind in others and everyone was copying off of each other the entire war.

[LCADolby]

The F86 and the MiG17 owe their designs to the Ta-183 Huckebein. Stealing plans for use after the war was very lucrative for both of the allies.

Without those plans the P80 would've been the American jet going into the Korean war and the Russian Jet, the Yak 15.

[Debrody]

And the Spitfire and the Yak and the 109 all look similar.

Thats a big fatarse NO.

The F-86 and the MiG-15 were both just jet engines with airplane parts attached to them in concept, there's not a whole lot of room for variation in what their designs could look like, and  really there was about as much as there could be.

Both the Sabre and the Mig were started to be designed right after the capitulation of Germany. They do look alike, and they share the concept with the most advanced german design.
Also the other early jets look completely different, except they have two wings. Aye, they are simmilar... geez. Still: F84, De havilland Vampire, Jak23, Hawker Hawk, Meteor, Supermarine Attacker, P59 Airacomet, P80, FH Phantom, in my eyes, they have nothing common with the german technology. But in the other hand, look at those what were designed right after the war: Mig-9, Mig-15, Dassault Mistére, Sabre... and youre telling me they arent the copyes and the improved versions of the 1101??

[MiloMorai]

The F86 and the MiG17 owe their designs to the Ta-183 Huckebein. Stealing plans for use after the war was very lucrative for both of the allies.

Without those plans the P80 would've been the American jet going into the Korean war and the Russian Jet, the Yak 15.

Actually the F-86 owes more to the Me262 and FJ-1 than it does to the Ta183. The F-86 went from straight wing to swept wing because of the swept wing research for the Me262. The XFJ-1 was ordered in late 1944.

[GScholz]

Motherland, what would you consider the best jet fighter of WWII?

[Vinkman]

Mr Hitler was a big fan of the most advanced equipment. So a lot of resources where put into the super weapons. The 262 was slowed down because he wanted it to be a fast bomber too, ...

I believe that is largely a myth. Hilter wanted it to carry a bomb, and was upset when he found out the production version couldn't carry one, but development was not slowed by any attempts to convert it a bomber. 

[Zacherof]

The biggest problem the 262's were the engines. Willy ordered engines and they were never delivered. And when they were they had terrible performance(lacking the power out put that was promised) Not to mention there was the political game played by ernhard milch hated willy and tried to stop him every chance he had.

The 262 is a huge what if thought. Could have been running daily sorties late '43 and '44. And who know what would have happened if the war was dragged on and how many more people would have died.

And kinda wrong thread but I want my 24 rockets the 262's commonly used.
They had several kills and were either salvo fired or all of them were fired. 

 

[R 105]

 Seems I read once Howard Hugues owned an ME-262 and wanted to race it but was turned down. I looked but didn't find the article. Anyone ever read that? I think he up graded the engines laterbut I read so much stuff I just can't recall if I am correct.

[800nate800]

The MiG-15, the deadly Soviet fighter of the Korean War.

vs.

The Ta-183, the advanced proposed Nazi jet fighter that would have carried the world's first air-to-air missiles, had it ever been built.

Only one can be THE DEADLIEST WAR MACHINE!!!

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Comments6
Deadliest War Machine: MiG-15 vs Ta-183
SPARTAN 119   SPARTAN 119 October 8, 2011 User blog:SPARTAN 119

The MiG-15, the deadly Soviet fighter of the Korean War.

vs.

The Ta-183, the advanced proposed Nazi jet fighter that would have carried the world's first air-to-air missiles, had it ever been built.

Only one can be THE DEADLIEST WAR MACHINE!!!
Contents
 [show]
Combatants
MiG-15Edit
800px-MiG-15 RB1
SPARTAN 119Added by SPARTAN 119

The MiG-15 is was a Soviet-built jet fighter most famous for its use against the American F-86 Sabre in the Korean War. The MiG also possessed the innovation of swept wings to reduce drag at high-speed. The aircraft was also the winner of the first jet-vs-jet dogfight in the early days of the Korean War.
Ta-183Edit
Ta 183 ModellA Model of the Ta-183.
SPARTAN 119Added by SPARTAN 119

The Ta-183 was an advanced jet fighter designed by Nazi Germany in the last days of World War II. The Ta-183 was never built, but had it been constructed, it would have, like the MiG-15 after it, had swept wings, and carried the Ruhrstahl X-4, the world's first guided air-to-air missile.
Armament
Close-Range WeaponsEdit
NS-23 23mm cannon x2 (MiG)Edit

The NS-23 is a Soviet single-barreled autocannon firing 23mm shells. The weapon had a rate of fire of between 650 (USAF test of captured weapons) and 850 official Soviet numbers. The weapon had a muzzle velocity of 690 meters/second.
MK 108 30mm cannon x4 (Ta-183)Edit

The MK 108 was a German 30mm single-barreled autocannon with a rate of fire of 650 rounds per minute. The 30mm round had a muzzle velocity of 540 meters per second, and four rounds could reliably bring down an Allied bomber such as a B-17.
119's EdgeEdit

The Ta-183's MK 108 for its greater number of guns and their larger 30mm rounds.
Long-Range WeaponsEdit
N-37 cannon (MiG) x1Edit

The N-37 was a large, powerful 37mm cannon capable of destroying an enemy bomber aircraft in a single shot. The weapon had a rate of fire of 400 rpm and a muzzle velocity of 690 meters per second.
Ruhrstahl X-4 (Ta-183) x4Edit
Ruhrstahl X-4 missile
SPARTAN 119Added by SPARTAN 119

The Ruhrstahl X-4 was an experimental German wire-guided air-to-air missile. The missile was never deployed in combat, but was intended to have a range of 1.5-3.5 kilometers, carry a 20 kilogram explosive warhead.
X-Factors
MiG-15    X-Factor    Ta-183
1075 kph    Top Speed    955 kph
15,500 meters    Service Ceiling    14,000 meters
0.54    Thrust to Weight Ratio    0.37
240.8 kg/m²    Wing Loading    196 kg/m²
ExplainationEdit

The MiG takes the X-factors of Speed, Service Ceiling, and Thrust/Weight, but has a higher wing loading, meaning, while its wings will produce more lift, it will be less maneuverable than the Ta-183.
Other Notes

Match ends on Saturday, 10/15.
Battle

MiG-15: 800px-MiG-15 RB1 800px-MiG-15 RB1800px-MiG-15 RB1 800px-MiG-15 RB1800px-MiG-15 RB1

Ta-183: Ta 183 ModellTa 183 ModellTa 183 ModellTa 183 Modell Ta 183 Modell

A flight of five MiG-15s flew over North Korea when, suddenly, all five pilots were blinded by a flash of light. When they opened there eyes, none of the landmarks that were below them could be seen, instead they were flying over what looked like... Berlin during the Second World War...

"What the hell just happened!?", one of the pilots said into the radio.

"I don't know. It looks likes like were somewhere else... If I didn't know better, I'd say we were somewhere in Europe, probably Germany.... Berlin, maybe.", the lead pilot said.

"How is that possib...", the MiG pilot was cut off when a rocket of some sort flew at him, "Incoming!!!"

The pilot began to maneuver his plane to avoid the missile, but it seemed to follow the MiG, scoring a direct hit and blowing apart the aircraft 800px-MiG-15 RB1. The surviving MiGs turned in the direction of the attacking aircraft. They looked a bit like their own MiGs, but marked with the iron cross on their wings and a swastika on the tail.

"What the hell is going on here!?", the lead pilot thought, seconds before a Ruhrstahl X-4 streaked towards his aircraft. The lead MiG pilot turned sharply away from the missile, dodging it.

The pilot of the lead Ta-183 was surprised, the Russians weren't supposed to have anything this advanced. The lead MiG pilot flew at one of the outer two Ta-183s, 23mm cannons blazing. The Ta-183 tried to return fire, but too late, the Ta-183 took several explosive shells to the left wingroot. The wing was blown off and the aircraft plummeted from the sky Ta 183 Modell.

A Ta-183 launched an X-4 in retaliation, hitting a MiG and blowing off its tail, sending the aircraft down in a fireball 800px-MiG-15 RB1. Suddenly, the Ta-183 pilot saw tracer tracers fly over his canopy and took made evasive maneuvers.

The Ta-183 managed to out maneuver the MiG on its tail, but it maneuvers lead it right into the gunsight of the lead MiG pilot. The pilot fired off his cannons, a 37mm round blowing away the front of the Ta-183 Ta 183 Modell.

The Ta-183 that escaped the MiG tailing it turned his attention to the Russian leader's wingman, firing off his four 30mm cannons into the tail, setting it ablaze and taking down the MiG 800px-MiG-15 RB1.

The Ta-183, however, didn't notice a MiG coming up from above. The MiG pilot fired his 23mm cannons at the enemy, one of them hitting the German aircraft in the cockpit, killing the pilot. The aircraft went of control and crashed Ta 183 Modell.

The Ta-183 lead pilot took down another MiG with an X-4 missile 800px-MiG-15 RB1. At the same time, the MiG pilot shot down the Ta-183 leader's wingman Ta 183 Modell.

The Ta-183 flight leader, infuriated by the loss of his squadron, fired off an X-4 at the MiG. The MiG leader, however, maneuvered his plane so that missile missed. The two aircraft flew at each other, guns blazing. Tracer's flew over the Russian pilot's canopy as he held down the trigger. His guns hit their mark, hitting the remaining X-4 missile on the German aircraft's wing. The warhead exploded and the wing was blown off, sending the Ta-183 spiraling down to the ground Ta 183 Modell.

The MiG pilot turned to the east. Even if this was another time, and perhaps some kind of sci-fi alternate universe, one thing remained. He did'nt have the fuel or ammunition to get into any more fights.

[FLOOB]

The simple answer is that they weren't

Germany had a lot of the same/similar stuff on the drawing board in 1944, 1945 as the US, USSR and UK. Jet engines were simultaneously invented in the UK, Germany and Italy, and the US and the USSR got their own jets from the UK and were building lack luster jet fighters at the same time Germany was. Unlike the latter powers, however, which just continued to develop them into the post war years, in Germany there were a lot of half baked designs that were pressed into service out of desperation. The reality of the situation is that by late 1944 Germany was relying on fighters that were supposed to be phased out at least a year before hand, but couldn't because development resources were focused on experimental aircraft that really should've never been fielded in the first place.
"Of course, that the question can still be asked without being laughed off of the internet says a lot about the German's aeronautical engineering."
Not really, it says a lot more about the myth of German technical superiority. The idea that the Me 262, which is honestly the second-best jet of that war anyway, could compete with the F86 is actually ridiculous.
There's a gigantic myth about German military technology during the Second World War that has surfaced because a lot of designs and novel ideas were put forth that never got far enough into development for everyone to say 'hey, this is stupid and it will never work', and to us they look like amazing creations from some sort of fantasy sci-fi world... because that's exactly where they came from.

Nailed it.

[Zacherof]

Not sure what's worse nate. You typing that, or me reading it word for word

[drgondog]

Wow - the F86A had 40% more thrust, 2/3 the W/L, cruised at Me 262 top speed, was ~ 20% faster - when the 26s engines were working Perfectly... and some think hypothetically the 262 was a match?

The 86 could out turn, out climb, out dive, out accelerate, plus had a higher ceiling and longer range - usually two of those will work for you... and had a radar ranging computing gunsight.

[Widewing]

The F86 and the MiG17 owe their designs to the Ta-183 Huckebein. Stealing plans for use after the war was very lucrative for both of the allies.

Without those plans the P80 would've been the American jet going into the Korean war and the Russian Jet, the Yak 15.

The F-86 was designed long before German technology was available. It started out as a straight wing design, and the design was later modified to take advantage of German swept wing research.

[Widewing]

The F86 and the MiG17 owe their designs to the Ta-183 Huckebein. Stealing plans for use after the war was very lucrative for both of the allies.

Without those plans the P80 would've been the American jet going into the Korean war and the Russian Jet, the Yak 15.

Tank had the opportunity to build his fighter after the war in Argentina, the FMA IAe 33 Pulqui II... It was considered a failure for reasons not all related to the design. It was not a great performer. The Argentines bought the F-86, which was fully developed and offered significantly better performance.