Tank

[guncrasher]

WASD is a controlling standard being around for ages, utilized by at least hundreds of games.

i used wasd to play games back in the day using an apple2c


semp

[NOT]

What happens when you press the "z" key?? The field of view zooms in... Is this way in all AC. I understand it is a concession, and one I couldnt do without as I dont have the eyes of a 15 or 20 or even 30 year old..... The feature is given to the tank commanders position to simulate binocs, but used to be available in the gun sight, as it is in AC.
Twist it however you want to.




NOT

[SmokinLoon]

FYI: I encourage people to NOT use zoom on aircraft and just see how well you hit.  I've found that I'm actually more accurate when I do not zoom in, at least not zoomed all the way it.  It is easier, or at least I perceive it to be easier to judge all the variables of the enemy plane when I'm not zoomed in all the way.  This is especially even more true when attacking bombers.

I don't always go by the "if it isn't broke don't fix it" maxim.  Sometimes, I think people forget that everything outside of the "hard" data is completely arbitrary.  Meaning things that are not hard wired to rate of fire, airspeed, climb rates, turn rates, etc, are %100 pulled out of the air by HTC.  Did pilots in WWII have the capability to zoom in??? Obviously not.  There is a trade off most certainly, the players need to be able to play the game.  I sometimes wish that HTC would adjust things like pilot and TC zoom view abilities from time to time.  Same goes for the rate of fire for tanks, G force threshold for black outs (not all pilots blacked out at the same G force), and other "soft" data.   

[Karnak]

What happens when you press the "z" key?? The field of view zooms in... Is this way in all AC. I understand it is a concession, and one I couldnt do without as I dont have the eyes of a 15 or 20 or even 30 year old..... The feature is given to the tank commanders position to simulate binocs, but used to be available in the gun sight, as it is in AC.
Twist it however you want to.




NOT

As I said, on my 19" screen it barely goes the 1:1 I'd have if I was seeing the scene in reality.  That isn't twisting anything, it is fact.  Even on a 27" monitor it won't come close to the magnification the tank sights provide.

FYI: I encourage people to NOT use zoom on aircraft and just see how well you hit.  I've found that I'm actually more accurate when I do not zoom in, at least not zoomed all the way it.  It is easier, or at least I perceive it to be easier to judge all the variables of the enemy plane when I'm not zoomed in all the way.  This is especially even more true when attacking bombers.

I don't always go by the "if it isn't broke don't fix it" maxim.  Sometimes, I think people forget that everything outside of the "hard" data is completely arbitrary.  Meaning things that are not hard wired to rate of fire, airspeed, climb rates, turn rates, etc, are %100 pulled out of the air by HTC.  Did pilots in WWII have the capability to zoom in??? Obviously not.  There is a trade off most certainly, the players need to be able to play the game.  I sometimes wish that HTC would adjust things like pilot and TC zoom view abilities from time to time.  Same goes for the rate of fire for tanks, G force threshold for black outs (not all pilots blacked out at the same G force), and other "soft" data.   

If my screen were larger I'd agree, but at 200 yards it is hard to make out what my enemy is doing on a 19" screen.

[muzik]

What happens when you press the "z" key?? The field of view zooms in... Is this way in all AC. I understand it is a concession, and one I couldnt do without as I dont have the eyes of a 15 or 20 or even 30 year old..... The feature is given to the tank commanders position to simulate binocs, but used to be available in the gun sight, as it is in AC.
Twist it however you want to.




NOT

What was on the tank sights is not "as it is in AC."  They were not the same at all. Don't get what your point is if you "can't do without it" then why are you suggesting it be removed?

It's obvious you assumed that the zoom feature gave you super human eyesight. It doesn't, it gives you normal human sight along with the huge disadvantage of taking away peripheral vision.

It provides no unnatural advantage and is an absolute necessity when dive bombing or strafing ground targets because of how difficult it is to keep track of well hidden targets.

[715]

Depends on the monitor's size.  On a 17" or 19" screen, as I recall, the "zoom" only gets you to 1:1 if you were sitting in the Spitfire or what have you.

No, a 17" screen would give you (17/24)*2.5 = 1.77.  My numbers were based on actual direct measurements, not "looks to me like".

I doubt any computer screen would be large enough to match the magnification the tank sights have in AH.  Maybe if I hooked my PC up to my 50" TV it would, but certainly not on my 19" screen.

Again, direct measurements: T34/85 tank sight magnification in AH (for 24" screen viewed at 18") is 2.5X, which matches the real one.  Max zoom view of an AH pilot is also 2.5X under the same hardware setup.  You can make the measurements yourself offline: park a T34/85 a given distance away and broadside to a tank on the field.  Use a ruler to measure the width of the tank in the gunsight view (or commanders view, they're the same for the T34/85).  Then park a P38 (or any other non tail dragger) at the exact same spot and measure the width of the same tank using max zoom.  It will be identical showing the same magnification.  Here, I'll do it for you: large field with TigerI on the runway viewed from T34/85 parked at the crossing point of all runways using gunsight view is 17.5 mm wide on my monitor.  Viewed from a P38 parked at the same point using max zoom (Z plus full []) the Tiger I is 17.5 mm wide.  Exactly the same view.

[muzik]

Please state your point.  No rational person believes that what we see is an exact translation of real world dimensions. There are too many variables. But it is a reasonable facsimile.

Use a ruler to measure the width of the tank in the gunsight view (or commanders view, they're the same for the T34/85).  Then park a P38 (or any other non tail dragger) at the exact same spot and measure the width of the same tank using max zoom.  It will be identical

I'm assuming you zoomed both the tank gun sight and the commander's view as well, because you didn't specify. I may test this result of yours one day.

msg4612608#msg4612608 date=1369601608]
That statement makes no sense whatsoever.  There is no functional difference between zoom and field of view. 

Here's what I posted in a previous similar thread: I've measured my screen (24" 1920x1080 at automatic FOV setting) and the tank sight is exactly the right magnification (2.5X in a T34/85) when my eyes are 18" from the screen (which is my normal distance).  The commanders zoom setting is also 2.5X.  For planes the default non zoomed view is about 0.4X, i.e. wide angle, the default zoomed level (no [ or ]) is about 0.86X, and the maximum zoom is 2.5X.  So it comes down to justifying why the limitations of a pixelated screen require 2.5X zoom above reality for pilots but don't require any zoom past 1:1 reality (i.e. the 2.5X the gunsight had in reality) for the tanker.

Karnak's post makes perfect sense. It sounds as if you are equating the zoom AH pilots have to a pair of binoculars. They are not the same "functionally" because a magnified gunsight or binoculars increase the distance you can see details. Pilots zoom does not increase the distance your virtual pilot can see, it only closes in on the details at the expense of peripheral vision.

Mathematically there may be some unintended magnification but a few pixels here and there or screen size doesn't make any "functional" difference when the average person could see virtually the same details looking at an object 2 or 3 hundred yards away in real life and in game.

But regardless of how accurate your numbers sound at the moment, I think you are missing some pieces of the equation here. For example one variable is that some tiny little number of pixels on your screen might add up to less than   .1mm on your ruler, but at 300 yds could equate to a much larger measurement.

[NOT]

I dont GV nearly enough anymore to want to waste the energy explaining myself any further. I will just say I agree with the OP that the current system is garbage. Thank you and have a nice day.





NOT

[SmokinLoon]

I dont GV nearly enough anymore to want to waste the energy explaining myself any further. I will just say I agree with the OP that the current system is garbage. Thank you and have a nice day.
NOT

Oh but we need further explanation! Those of us who appreciate the nod towards realism in the tank sights and optical quality, and are intelligent enough to grasp the concept of the TC (and the linked MG's, "auto" transmission, etc), really like to hear why the system is so bad.  For that matter, I'm sure HTC needs to know as well.  We all want to know why we should go back to the same-same tank sights for every tank, have HTC's modelers waste dozens of hours of time modeling tank interiors, and why the manual transmission was superior.  Inquiring minds want to know!   

[Eric19]

why the manual transmission was superior.  Inquiring minds want to know!   

you could actually keep it in one gear up a hill and not be constantly down shifting and shifting up

[Fish42]

you could actually keep it in one gear up a hill and not be constantly down shifting and shifting up

You can still do that. Hold W until its about to change. Let go when it is 1 mph from changing gear. It will hold that gear and speed while it can up the current slope. Now this is not quite as quick as the old setup... by 1 mph.

[gyrene81]

you could actually keep it in one gear up a hill and not be constantly down shifting and shifting up

i must be doing something wrong, i don't have such problems going up hills.

[715]

I'm assuming you zoomed both the tank gun sight and the commander's view as well, because you didn't specify. I may test this result of yours one day.

Yes, max zoom commanders view is identical to the gunsight view in the T34/85 (the gunsight has no zoom for the T34).  And, as I measured, it is the same as max zoom in a pilots view: the image of the tank is the same size and contains the same number of pixels when viewed from the same spot.

[muzik]

Yes, max zoom commanders view is identical to the gunsight view in the T34/85 (the gunsight has no zoom for the T34).  And, as I measured, it is the same as max zoom in a pilots view: the image of the tank is the same size and contains the same number of pixels when viewed from the same spot.

Ok I buy that, but I still think you're missing some pieces of the equation. I'm wondering how you could possibly pick the exact same spot when driving a tank or plane without your pilot getting out and putting tape on the ground. Those little details compound errors over longer distances.




The bottom line is that when I use zoom in a plane looking at other planes it is always just for a second. I don't fly around with it and if added up, the amount of time I use it is .000001% of my flight time. And I don't think it is used much more by anyone else. It just has too big a disadvantage.

Plus what I see in that zoom is not super high detail by any means unless I am 100 yards from the object, which is never the case.

So the real answer to  this question, if you can pull it off, can be found if you find someone with fighter pilot eyesight, have him look at a ww2 aircraft from exactly 200 yds, 400 yds, etc and compare what he sees to the same (zoomed of course) sight picture in AH.

I don't think he will find that much difference.

[Lusche]

Ok I buy that, but I still think you're missing some pieces of the equation. I'm wondering how you could possibly pick the exact same spot when driving a tank or plane without your pilot getting out and putting tape on the ground. Those little details compound errors over longer distances.

That's very easy to do. just drive to the exact same spot on a base (for example right in the center of the rearm pad), and look at the same 'drone' tank. A difference of 1-5' is negligible at total distances of D800 or so.

And that's exactly how I tested the different views and magnifications right after the GV system redesign, coming tot he same conclusions. An enterprising soul could even try to dig up this old thread...