Defense of the HE111

[TomD]

At he risk of being the source of someones flamegasm I have to ask; has anyone had much of any success in defending 111's from fighter attack? While admittedly I'm not a bomber guy and thus my proficiency is limited, I have had so far 0% success in repelling much less defeating a fighter. I thought I was getting somewhere this past Friday night when a Typhoon attacked me. My fire made him pull up sharply and change direction albeit briefly. I thought, well I showed him! Seems the only thing I showed him was that I was awake and ready to be slaughtered. He resumed his attack and proceeded to stomp a mud hole.. In so doing he followed a mostly dead astern attack which had he done against say the B17, would likely have cost him dearly. I was pretty confident that I had hit him with a significant amount of fire; his course allowed at times the convergence of multiple guns from the whole formation, but it appeared to have little or no effect.
I see also that the 111 by this tours stats is second only to the C47 for kills to losses. Is this because it's still relatively new and going through growing pains? Or, is defending the 111 the Kobayashi Maru?
I would be grateful to anyone who has success experience they would care to share.     

[Lusche]

I see also that the 111 by this tours stats is second only to the C47 for kills to losses. Is this because it's still relatively new and going through growing pains?

No. It is because in the Late War Arena the He 111 is little more than a flying target. The combination of slow speed & climb rate and weak defensive armament means that you generally really need a lot of luck or a very inept enemy (preferably both) to survive attacks by hostile fighters.

[Eric19]

I did manage to get a couple of kills with the 111 in the defense department the first day it came out its terrible but it ain't great either

[Karnak]

The fact that the G4M1 has a better K/D ratio says about all that has to be said about it.  It is a pretty bomber, but it is also very much a prewar bomber being put into combat with far more advanced machines that were designed, or modified, with the lessons three or four years of intense warfare in mind.

I sometimes see Luftwaffe fans talk about how different a 1941 BoB would be, thinking of the superior, drop tank equipped Bf109F-4, and I always imagine He111s and Ju88s against cannon armed Spitfire Vs and Hurricane Mk IIs.  I think, on the balance, the situation would have been stronger for the RAF in 1941 compared to 1940.

[mthrockmor]

fun bird for a mini-mission. 2 to 3 He-111 formations, climb to 20k and take along a schwarm of 190s as escort. my guess is you land all your drones.

Boo

[TomD]

No. It is because in the Late War Arena the He 111 is little more than a flying target. The combination of slow speed & climb rate and weak defensive armament means that you generally really need a lot of luck or a very inept enemy (preferably both) to survive attacks by hostile fighters.

Doh!
Succinct, and I would have to agree. I presumed since the 111 was used throughout the war it was appropriate to do so, not necessary..
Now in retrospect, thanks to your sighting what should have been obvious, it occurs to me the history behind the B17's going in unescorted..
Even with the B17's greater ability to defend itself, and bomber box formations etc, history records that unescorted bombing resulted in an
unacceptable attrition rate. In short, operating the 111 unescorted in the late war arena is the Kobayashi Maru.

[Volron]

I wonder how many actually caught the Maru bit.

[Karnak]

fun bird for a mini-mission. 2 to 3 He-111 formations, climb to 20k and take along a schwarm of 190s as escort. my guess is you land all your drones.

Boo

Depends very much on the Fw190 drivers.  I once encountered four P-51Ds escorting a single C-47A while I was in an A6M5b.  I had the altitude, dove in, killed the C-47 and then zoomed back up.  The P-51Ds never had a chance to save their buddy, or even avenge him.

I wonder how many actually caught the Maru bit.

I'd imagine most of us did.

[Lusche]

I wonder how many actually caught the Maru bit.

 I didn't, but my wife did

[macleod01]

I must be extremely lucky then. So far I have 2-2 1/2 in the Deaths to Repels ratio.

On my first sortie with the 111's I got attacked by a 47 and a Spit 16. 47 came in dead astern and I managed to kill him (Probably pilot wound) before the Spit 16 got me.

On my second sortie I got jumped by a Typhie. I was promptly dispatched.

As I write this I have just landed a sortie in which I got jumped by a 262 over the strats. He got one of my drones before breaking off. I landed my damage and my other 2 planes.

Overall the defensive guns and tactics are pathetic on this plane. They are historically correct but pathetic nonetheless. Best survival tactic is to take escorts. Other than that, you should count that every sortie in the He-111 is going to end badly for you.

Having said that, I do love that plane! It is in my favourites list and is my main bomber. I campaigned for it for long enough, the least I can do is to use the plane!

[TomD]

I wonder how many actually caught the Maru bit.

It can be googled. I checked before making reference to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru

I must be extremely lucky then. So far I have 2-2 1/2 in the Deaths to Repels ratio.

On my first sortie with the 111's I got attacked by a 47 and a Spit 16. 47 came in dead astern and I managed to kill him (Probably pilot wound) before the Spit 16 got me.

On my second sortie I got jumped by a Typhie. I was promptly dispatched.

As I write this I have just landed a sortie in which I got jumped by a 262 over the strats. He got one of my drones before breaking off. I landed my damage and my other 2 planes.

Overall the defensive guns and tactics are pathetic on this plane. They are historically correct but pathetic nonetheless. Best survival tactic is to take escorts. Other than that, you should count that every sortie in the He-111 is going to end badly for you.

Having said that, I do love that plane! It is in my favourites list and is my main bomber. I campaigned for it for long enough, the least I can do is to use the plane!

Strangely enough I like it too. And like yourself will continue to use it.   Fighter fodder anyone?

[caldera]

I wonder how many actually caught the Maru bit.

It took three tries, but I passed that stupid test. 

[hammer]

No. It is because in the Late War Arena the He 111 is little more than a flying target. The combination of slow speed & climb rate and weak defensive armament means that you generally really need a lot of luck or a very inept enemy (preferably both) to survive attacks by hostile fighters.

This

[SmokinLoon]

The only success I've really had is when the attacking fighters over shoot and I'm able to tie in to them with the forward 20mm's.  Otherwise, most people know that from a high attack position there are only 3/.30 caliber MG's defending.

The He111 is a very capable bomber, I use it on a regular basis when I know that A: there will be minimal chance of interception, and B: when I have a trusted escort fighter or 2 with me.  The He111 is a very versatile bomber, considering the different ord packages it can carry and the amount of weight it can carry, it climbs rather well.  The top speed in the 260-ish TAS range leaves a wee bit to be desired but it is does well enough.   

[Denniss]

Is there no late-war He 111 H-20 with 13mm guns?