Author Topic: War is hell, for all involved.  (Read 3760 times)

Offline mbailey

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2013, 08:16:29 PM »
Hey Shifty, shoot me ur address ( PM ) , Id like to send u an original photo as a housewarming gift.... I collect original WW2 aviation photos, and would love to see one of them hanging on ur wall at the new abode   :aok
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Offline GScholz

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2013, 08:16:34 PM »
After getting out of the smoke and seeing the water and the attitude of the aircraft, he might just have felt that his best chance was staying with the aircraft.
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Offline Golfer

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2013, 08:25:56 PM »
Even if he would have bailed out nobody was going to come pick him up.  Hopelessness and dying an honorable death for the Emperor in the twisted brainwashed version of the Bushido the Japanese were pushing on their youths in the early 20th century and throughout the war likely calmed him enough to ride it in.

Offline titanic3

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2013, 08:28:45 PM »
Even if he would have bailed out nobody was going to come pick him up.  Hopelessness and dying an honorable death for the Emperor in the twisted brainwashed version of the Bushido the Japanese were pushing on their youths in the early 20th century and throughout the war likely calmed him enough to ride it in.

Even with a Western mindset, I think I would rather die with my buds than leave them only to spend possibly months by myself in an unknown hostile jungle.

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

semp

Offline Shifty

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2013, 08:42:50 PM »
Its just a haunting image plain and simple. By the way Zacherof  many of the combatants of WWII were draftees or conscripts. Not everybody had the luxury of knowing what they were getting into.

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline Guppy35

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2013, 08:56:40 PM »
Its just a haunting image plain and simple. By the way Zacherof  many of the combatants of WWII were draftees or conscripts. Not everybody had the luxury of knowing what they were getting into.

That's important to note.  The war wasn't sold to guys buy showing them what might happen.

I've been reading the recently published history of JG/2 by Eric Mombeek.  Just watching the unit be formed it's classic in selling the 'glory' of it.  Photos of ceremonies near Richtofen's grave with a Triplane brought in along with a 109 to show the connection.  The whole 'Knights of the Air' bit showing itself. 

One of the long time serving JG2 pilots talks about it.  They really never had a chance to question it as they got it from the start.  Your enemy is over there.  He's responsible for your lot in life.  The airwar in particular played well to guys wanting to go fast and be cool with all that horsepower, the sleek lines, the big guns and fancy paint.

Look at any photo of a newly graduated pilot from any country during WW2 and then look at a photo after they've been in combat for a while.  They had no idea what they were getting into.  By the time it sank in they were faced with a choice of letting their buddies down or continuing to take the risks, then knowing what might happen.

One of the survivors of a B-24 crew I researched for many years said in the end the best thing that happened to him was being shot down, as he knew he'd have lost his mind otherwise from the constant fear and strain.  He went down on his 13th, survived being a POW.  Of his 10 man crew from their graduation picture, six died and four survived.   He didn't make that statement lightly.

One of the other survivors was in a POW camp with an infantry officer who'd been captured during the Battle of the Bulge.  He made the comment that this guy saved his life in the POW camp and never got a chance to thank him.  But a stroke of luck I found the guy and got them back in touch.  This infantry guy had fought the demons ever since, in and out of the VA and never really being able to get a grip on what he'd seen.  Yet in the midst of it he'd saved this B24 bombardiers life.

I was corresponding with him and asked if he could tell me any more about his experience.  He tried to and as he wrote you could literally see the shaking in his hand start and what had been very nice handwriting start to become illegible to the point he apologized and said he just couldn't do it.

Absolutely broke my heart to see that and for him to feel the need to apologize for not being able to write.

Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Shifty

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2013, 08:58:39 PM »
That's important to note.  The war wasn't sold to guys buy showing them what might happen.

I've been reading the recently published history of JG/2 by Eric Mombeek.  Just watching the unit be formed it's classic in selling the 'glory' of it.  Photos of ceremonies near Richtofen's grave with a Triplane brought in along with a 109 to show the connection.  The whole 'Knights of the Air' bit showing itself. 

One of the long time serving JG2 pilots talks about it.  They really never had a chance to question it as they got it from the start.  Your enemy is over there.  He's responsible for your lot in life.  The airwar in particular played well to guys wanting to go fast and be cool with all that horsepower, the sleek lines, the big guns and fancy paint.

Look at any photo of a newly graduated pilot from any country during WW2 and then look at a photo after they've been in combat for a while.  They had no idea what they were getting into.  By the time it sank in they were faced with a choice of letting their buddies down or continuing to take the risks, then knowing what might happen.

One of the survivors of a B-24 crew I researched for many years said in the end the best thing that happened to him was being shot down, as he knew he'd have lost his mind otherwise from the constant fear and strain.  He went down on his 13th, survived being a POW.  Of his 10 man crew from their graduation picture, six died and four survived.   He didn't make that statement lightly.

One of the other survivors was in a POW camp with an infantry officer who'd been captured during the Battle of the Bulge.  He made the comment that this guy saved his life in the POW camp and never got a chance to thank him.  But a stroke of luck I found the guy and got them back in touch.  This infantry guy had fought the demons ever since, in and out of the VA and never really being able to get a grip on what he'd seen.  Yet in the midst of it he'd saved this B24 bombardiers life.

I was corresponding with him and asked if he could tell me any more about his experience.  He tried to and as he wrote you could literally see the shaking in his hand start and what had been very nice handwriting start to become illegible to the point he apologized and said he just couldn't do it.

Absolutely broke my heart to see that and for him to feel the need to apologize for not being able to write.



Wow awesome story thanks Dan.

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline TGG93

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2013, 09:10:21 PM »
I remember there was a compilation of gun cams somewhere on YouTube, one of them showed a pilot in his chute getting shot at. Couldn't remember which side he belonged to but my vague memory tells me it was a German pilot and the gun cam from a P51.

This one or one like it? Not quite in his chute but it's the closest I remember seeing.



"A German pilot bails from his Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Würger (Shrike) after it was struck by machine gun fire from a US fighter-bomber, Belgium - December 1944."

Sources seem to agree that it was from a P-47s gun camera.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 09:12:26 PM by TGG93 »
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2013, 09:20:18 PM »
Something about the gunner's struggles really haunted me


Imagine that.  I expect he figured that he was too low to bail (if he had a chute) and it was time to make his peace.  Hope I have that presence of mind under similar circumstances, if ever they occur.

Good find, Shifty, I've never seen that photo either.

- oldman

Offline Oldman731

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2013, 09:21:16 PM »
Someone posted this moving and tragic video some time ago. It includes the doomed B-24 Guppy posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxqg_ub3xAw


That was very worthy, Sholz, thanks.

- oldman

Offline Guppy35

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2013, 09:23:52 PM »
Couldn't find the film, but there's a classic kamakazi shoot down where the pilot's chute opens and the gunners continue firing away.  Considering all that was going on, it wasn't a huge surprise to see.
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Offline Shifty

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2013, 09:24:34 PM »

Imagine that.  I expect he figured that he was too low to bail (if he had a chute) and it was time to make his peace.  Hope I have that presence of mind under similar circumstances, if ever they occur.

Good find, Shifty, I've never seen that photo either.

- oldman

Yeah kind of makes me wonder how it has been missed by so many of us old WWII Airplane nuts all these years.  :)

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"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline GScholz

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2013, 09:25:03 PM »
TGG93, it started during the Battle of Britain really. Despite the fact that Britain is an island nation it was the Germans who had the best SAR system. They had several squadrons of flying boats especially trained to rescue downed pilots at sea. At first the Germans marked their SAR planes with red crosses hoping thay would offer some protection under the Geneva Conventions, but the RAF shot them down regardless. In turn the Luftwaffe started strafing RAF rescue launches and pilots in their dinghies. It just escalated from there...
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 09:26:58 PM by GScholz »
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Offline titanic3

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2013, 09:43:58 PM »
This one or one like it? Not quite in his chute but it's the closest I remember seeing.

(Image removed from quote.)

"A German pilot bails from his Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Würger (Shrike) after it was struck by machine gun fire from a US fighter-bomber, Belgium - December 1944."

Sources seem to agree that it was from a P-47s gun camera.

No, the pilot's chute was already open and the gun cam was rolling, the plane was super close. But I haven't seen that pic before either, damn that's scary. I'll try to find the youtube video again.

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

semp

Offline Karnak

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2013, 10:15:49 PM »
Even if he would have bailed out nobody was going to come pick him up.  Hopelessness and dying an honorable death for the Emperor in the twisted brainwashed version of the Bushido the Japanese were pushing on their youths in the early 20th century and throughout the war likely calmed him enough to ride it in.
From what I've read of Japanese sources this point is overstressed in American and European books.  Yes, the propaganda was there, but it was not as effective or bought into as all that.  In a lot of cases they did things because they didn't really have a choice.  Saburo Sakai made some comments about that in regards to the kamikazes.  I'm not saying that there weren't fanatics as there certainly were, but it was hardly universal.
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