War is hell, for all involved.

[Shifty]

I'm currently reading Eagles of the Southern Sky. I am suprised how many of Saburo Sakai's Kokutai mates took to their chutes in and around Port Moresby.
Not all the Tainan Kokutai pilots used their chutes for seat cushions only.

[Zacherof]

Didn't both axis and allies have bouyies with radios or something like that tomswim to if they bailed out in the channel?

[Shifty]

Didn't both axis and allies have bouyies with radios or something like that tomswim to if they bailed out in the channel?

Yes I believe they did in the English Channel during the Battle of Britain. Not so in the PTO.

[danny76]

TGG93, it started during the Battle of Britain really. Despite the fact that Britain is an island nation it was the Germans who had the best SAR system. They had several squadrons of flying boats especially trained to rescue downed pilots at sea. At first the Germans marked their SAR planes with red crosses hoping thay would offer some protection under the Geneva Conventions, but the RAF shot them down regardless. In turn the Luftwaffe started strafing RAF rescue launches and pilots in their dinghies. It just escalated from there...

The Polish pilots shooting of guys in their chutes was well documented, also was the fact that the German Red Cross planes were routinely used for reconnaissance was one of the reasons for them being attacked. Also what springs to mind is the fact that you may have been jumped by an enemy, he tries to kill you without you knowing he was there, you reverse him and shoot him down, he bails and all of a sudden any animosity you feel towards him is expected to be instantly dispelled?
One of my oldest friends fought in Rhodesia, he parachuted in ion the Westlands Farm raid and whilst hung up in a tree had a dissident terrosrist empty a mag and a half of AK fire at him and missed. Dave cut himself down and the now ammo-less terrorist threw down his weapon surrender. He got promptly drilled and rightly so!

[Rich46yo]

The Japs didnt give their air crews parachutes right?

The odds of getting out of a falling Lancaster were one in five due to there only being one door to escape from. In a B-17 they were three in five. Overall you had far better odds being a mud pusher in WW2 then being a bomber pilot in Europe. I expect your odds werent that good being a IJA or IJN pilot either. Most of all since your own people didnt value you enough to have you do anything but die.

[danny76]

The Japs didnt give their air crews parachutes right?

The odds of getting out of a falling Lancaster were one in five due to there only being one door to escape from. In a B-17 they were three in five. Overall you had far better odds being a mud pusher in WW2 then being a bomber pilot in Europe. I expect your odds werent that good being a IJA or IJN pilot either. Most of all since your own people didnt value you enough to have you do anything but die.

Makes it sound as though you believe that the powers that be in any other countries feel any differently about their troops?

[Rich46yo]

Makes it sound as though you believe that the powers that be in any other countries feel any differently about their troops?

Your kidding right?

[danny76]

Your kidding right?

Errm, no, not really. Do you think Haig or Kitchener, or Eisenhower, McCarthur, Sandy Woodward, Tony Blair or George Bush have or had any compunction about sending men to die other than in relation to their political image. You are mistaken if you believe differently.
Japanese troops were expected to die gloriously for their emporer, all other armed forces bestow high awards on those that do the same. Surely there is a correlation.

[Shifty]

The Japs didnt give their air crews parachutes right?

Rich Japanese pilots were issued parachutes. Many of them chose not to use them for various reasons ranging from they hampered them while doing ACM to they were operating over enemy territory and chose not to wear them for fear of being captured. Then again many did wear them and use them.

[Rich46yo]

Rich Japanese pilots were issued parachutes. Many of them chose not to use them for various reasons ranging from they hampered them while doing ACM to they were operating over enemy territory and chose not to wear them for fear of being captured. Then again many did wear them and use them.

Might could be. I know most, at least, refused to even wear them. I cant ever remember a photo of a jap pilot parachuting.

I do believe , overall, that Allied leaders values the lives of their men more then Axis ones did. Most of all the Japs. Most of all the officers of the IJA, who treated their men as little better then dogs. Of all the military services of the time the IJA was a study in institutionalized brutality starting the day the men entered service until the day the day they would be ordered to die a useless death. Many Jap, German, and Soviet soldiers were not even nationals and little more then slaves who were forced to fight at threat of death from their masters. How much you think there own leadership gave a damn about them?

It pretty much came down to the individual officer regarding the welfare of their own men. The German army, most of all the old Prussian officers, were professional and didnt like to see useless death. But they still answered to the Party and to Hitler and had to obey "until the last man and bullet" orders as their country was being systematically destroyed. The Soviets had no second thoughts about ordering their men to certain death. Even mowing down the few survivors who came running back. The Soviet leadership didnt give a damn about casualties.

And the Japs embraced death. If they didnt order their men to certain death then they left them to starve on Islands nobody remembers. Both the Japanese and German Govt.'s refused to quit even as their populations of woman and children were being immolated in the horror of firebombing. Let alone what the soldiers went thru.

I dont think theres even a comparison. Thru history Dictatorships and military Govt.'s arent exactly known for their concern over their own casualties. I could name all the conflicts but do I really have to?

[-ammo-]

This one or one like it? Not quite in his chute but it's the closest I remember seeing.

(Image removed from quote.)

"A German pilot bails from his Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Würger (Shrike) after it was struck by machine gun fire from a US fighter-bomber, Belgium - December 1944."

Sources seem to agree that it was from a P-47s gun camera.

I've read two instances of pilots attacking bailed aircrew in their chutes.

1.  Krupinski witnessed a Russian yak pilot attack and kill his fellow squad mate in the chute.  It infuriated him and he broke discipline to attack the offending Russian pilot.  

2.  While not in his chute, Bob Johnson did attack a German pilot as he was attempting to exit his doomed 109.  While he was returning to England alone, after a big dogfight over Dummer Lake, Johnson was attacked by the lone 109.  After a 1 on 1 battle that lasted for more than a few minutes, Johnson was able to score hits on the 109. As the pilot climbed out of the cockpit.  He stated the German was good enough in his 109 that he didn't want him to face an more allied pilots.  Right or wrong, we look at in hind sight.

I have read pilot's memoirs/bios where they state thy had heard reports of their respective enemies shooting bailed pilots in the chute.  Galland mentions this in an interview I recently read.

On a slightly different note, I read an account from a U.S. medium bomber aircrew at in an operation at Bogainville where they were ordered to strafe Japanese survivors from a troop transport they had just sunk.  

When I get back to the house, I can provide references.  Currently on Urlaub in Italy.

Shifty,  thanks for posting that photo - first time seeing it for me.

Ammo

[Soulyss]

I'm currently reading Eagles of the Southern Sky. I am suprised how many of Saburo Sakai's Kokutai mates took to their chutes in and around Port Moresby.
Not all the Tainan Kokutai pilots used their chutes for seat cushions only.

How is that book Shifty?  I've been eyeing it for a while now.

[danny76]

Might could be. I know most, at least, refused to even wear them. I cant ever remember a photo of a jap pilot parachuting.

I remember one. It was about 3 posts ago in this very thread.

[danny76]

Might could be. I know most, at least, refused to even wear them. I cant ever remember a photo of a jap pilot parachuting.

I do believe , overall, that Allied leaders values the lives of their men more then Axis ones did. Most of all the Japs. Most of all the officers of the IJA, who treated their men as little better then dogs. Of all the military services of the time the IJA was a study in institutionalized brutality starting the day the men entered service until the day the day they would be ordered to die a useless death. Many Jap, German, and Soviet soldiers were not even nationals and little more then slaves who were forced to fight at threat of death from their masters. How much you think there own leadership gave a damn about them?

It pretty much came down to the individual officer regarding the welfare of their own men. The German army, most of all the old Prussian officers, were professional and didnt like to see useless death. But they still answered to the Party and to Hitler and had to obey "until the last man and bullet" orders as their country was being systematically destroyed. The Soviets had no second thoughts about ordering their men to certain death. Even mowing down the few survivors who came running back. The Soviet leadership didnt give a damn about casualties.

And the Japs embraced death. If they didnt order their men to certain death then they left them to starve on Islands nobody remembers. Both the Japanese and German Govt.'s refused to quit even as their populations of woman and children were being immolated in the horror of firebombing. Let alone what the soldiers went thru.

I dont think theres even a comparison. Thru history Dictatorships and military Govt.'s arent exactly known for their concern over their own casualties. I could name all the conflicts but do I really have to?

Fairly sure that Winston told British units to stand and fight more than once.

[Shifty]

How is that book Shifty?  I've been eyeing it for a while now.

I really like it Soulyss, I've learned a lot in it. In fact I was unaware exactly how many of the Tainan Kokutai pilots actually did take to their parachutes
there are quite a few instaces in the book. One thing about the book that disappointed me. The quality of the paper it is printed on is not very good and
for 70+ Dollars I would have preferred a hardback. However the amount of info contained on the IJN RAAF and USAAF operating in Papua New Guinea during 1942 is
fantastic. Organization of the Tainan Kokutai aircraft markings and story's of the units pilots other than the well known Sasai Squadron of Saburo Sakai fame is
very intersting as well.