My gift from the NRA

[Slate]

  I know the concept but don't like hypocrites that expect an organization to act differently then themselves. I don't like it anymore than you that trade with china is unbalanced in thier favor. China is very resistant to foreign items. I choose US made items as much as possible. All my Cars are GM made although many of the parts are outsourced from other countries.

  Buy a hat from the NRA store and you can choose the US made ones. Get a free one and well you get what you pay for.


PRODUCT DESCRIPTION

Your dedication to the preservation of our rights and freedoms has inspired us to design a new hat as unique as you are. Masterfully embroidered on the front panel is our popular and highly detailed seven color shield. Your member level is fully embroidered on the left side with the corresponding color matching brim. Adjustable leather backstrap secured with a custom brass closure embossed with the NRA logo.This classy styled hat is made to the highest standards possible which is what you expect when you reach this level of membership.
 

 

   

[Bizman]

we are forced to learn their language in order to get a job at any of their u.s. operations?

Would be about time!  English has been dominating all international affairs since the end of Middle Age, although it is not dominant by the number of people using it as their native tongue. Heck, they're even planning to change English as the primary teaching and studying langue in Finnish universities. Think about a professor giving a lecture even he doesn't fully understand...

I've recently read some good news about choosing where their products are being made in: Both a Finnish and an American company have brought their manufacturing back home, because they calculated they'd save money by doing that. No, they don't use illegal underaged emigrants as workers. They just found out that although labour costs are higher, local manufacturing is more flexible to changes in demand, gets improvement ideas from the workers, simplifies RMA processes among other money saving elements. The American company makes cheap heaters, the Finnish one retro bicycles.

[saggs]

name one gun made in china that you would want to fire more than once...  

I can name several off the top of my head.  

Chinese Type 53 Mosin Nagant.
Chinese Norinco SKS
Chinese Norinco AK-47
Chinese Mauser C96

Sure they aren't the same quality as an American or European built firearm, but they are cheap and reliable, and in the case of the Chinese Mosin that I own, just as accurate as it's Russian built brother.  You'll also notice a pattern here, the Chinese aren't much for original designs, but give them a design and they will build it cheaper and faster then the original.  Which is why outsourcing production is not the nasty evil thing so many Americans make it out to be...  more on that later.

Also.. guess who invented gunpowder.

the idea is that the nra is an american organization of and for american citizens lobbying for american rights...to send members who pay an annual fee in american dollars anything made anywhere but america, kinda shows a lack of american patriotic ideals. nobody in italy, china, japan, or anywhere else has a stake in our constitution, unless they want to become citizens.

Guess what, the NRA has also does frequent gun giveaways as fundraisers.   Now I suppose you think it's horrible that some of the guns they've given away are things like Glocks (Austrian) XDs (Croatian) and H&Ks (German).  Supporting the Bill of Rights, and specifically the 2nd has nothing to do with where a product is made, but the right to keep and use said product.

Everyone with their phony outrage at chinese products and outsourcing just makes me    .  Guess what, we live in a world with a global economy now.  Americans love it because it means cheap products.  China loves it because it's supports their booming economy.  It's a win win.  And don't tell me otherwise with some sob story about you or a friend, uncle whatever who lost their job to outsourcing, they lost their job... boo hoo... go find a better job


Back to outsourcing;  Outsourcing just means fewer minimum wage jobs in the US and more high paying jobs.  The economics of it go like this:  The Acme company makes a real popular widget, they are using American labor to produce it, so it's relatively expensive and they don't sell many.  Soon they realize they could have a much better profit margin AND a cheaper MSRP if they manufactured in China.  So they send the manufacturing to China, now they are making and selling 10 times more widgets then ever before, at a cheaper price for the consumer.  This means they are now making great profits, the company quadruples in size, and they are flush with capital to invest in R&D and prototype of the new and improved Ultra-Widget-Plus.   Now because R&D requires more then just a body with a heartbeat they hire American engineers and designers and researchers and marketers, high paying skilled jobs that never would have existed if didn't have the capital they got from outsourcing the non-skilled minimum wage manufacturing jobs.  Now the Acme company has more high paying skilled jobs, then it had minimum wage jobs before they outsourced.  

The perfect real world example of this is Apple (even though I'm not a fanboy).  Apple employs thousands of highly paid American designers, engineers, developers, programmers, marketers etc..  those high paying jobs would not exist if Apple didn't use Chinese labor for the mindless manufacturing.  If Apple where made in the USA we would not have the Ipad, Ipod or Ianything.

For another nail in the coffin of the ridiculous "Stealing American Jobs" argument, just let me ask a hypothetical question.  If everything in every store in the USA that is made in China today, where suddenly changed and produced entirely domestic, would there be enough American workers willing to work for minimum wage to keep those products on the self?   And would the consumer be willing to pay 4-5 times as much for all those products?

All these hypocrites decrying cheap Chinese products, while reaping the benefits of them every day...      I buy what I want/need without worrying too much about country of origin.   I am a helicopter mechanic, 90% of my work tools are American made Snap-On, Mac or Matco because I want the best for my professional work and they are the best.   But my home tool kit is tawainese made Blue-Point, and I even own more then a few cheap-a%# Harbor Freight tools for automotive work at home.





Back on topic, I got the same hat from the NRA, I've worn it a few times, it's a decent hat for a freebie, better quality then some other free hats I've gotten.  Funny thing is my Father has been an NRA member longer then I have and he said he's never gotten one.  

[NatCigg]

Getting rid of the unions would only cause more outsourcing.

As for corporate greed that's what happens if business is deregulated totally.

In Australia its getting worse.

you can fight it.
you will loose.

you can compete.
you may survive.

You can buy Australian.
You will pay more.

Not everyone is willing to support your bussines when china offers a similar product for less.
 

[Rino]

The NRA is a joke. I am the 2nd amendment.

       Then you've had a tough year 

[gyrene81]

I can name several off the top of my head.  

Chinese Type 53 Mosin Nagant.
Chinese Norinco SKS
Chinese Norinco AK-47
Chinese Mauser C96

Sure they aren't the same quality as an American or European built firearm, but they are cheap and reliable, and in the case of the Chinese Mosin that I own, just as accurate as it's Russian built brother.  You'll also notice a pattern here, the Chinese aren't much for original designs, but give them a design and they will build it cheaper and faster then the original.  Which is why outsourcing production is not the nasty evil thing so many Americans make it out to be...  more on that later.

you're brave. the quality of chinese steel is lower than post war japanese. i've seen the effects of long term use on chinese made weapons, they're as disposble as everything else made in china.

Everyone with their phony outrage at chinese products and outsourcing just makes me    .  Guess what, we live in a world with a global economy now.  Americans love it because it means cheap products.  China loves it because it's supports their booming economy.  It's a win win.  And don't tell me otherwise with some sob story about you or a friend, uncle whatever who lost their job to outsourcing, they lost their job... boo hoo... go find a better job

it's not phony, the concern and outrage are genuine, especially for all of the people who lost their jobs with no other job prospects to replace the positions that were outsourced. the numbers will continue to go up too. i don't know where you got the idea that americans love cheap products. "cheap" was a standard forced on the american people from out of control inflation and repeated economic recessions. we have just learned to accept the "disposable products" mentality that started with cheap japanese imports. we sacrificed quality for quantity. that was about the time that people started scruitinizing unions and the wages of union workers.

Back to outsourcing;  Outsourcing just means fewer minimum wage jobs in the US and more high paying jobs.

that's absolute b.s. it really means fewer minimum wage opportunities for people to get entry level experience and far fewer high paying jobs because of corporate middle management cuts and increases in automation processes replacing 10 workers for every instance. even the automobile industry admits that.

The perfect real world example of this is Apple (even though I'm not a fanboy).  Apple employs thousands of highly paid American designers, engineers, developers, programmers, marketers etc..  those high paying jobs would not exist if Apple didn't use Chinese labor for the mindless manufacturing.  If Apple where made in the USA we would not have the Ipad, Ipod or Ianything.p

you might want to re-examine your figures...the majority of apple employees are at the retail and customer service levels, not "highly paid".

For another nail in the coffin of the ridiculous "Stealing American Jobs" argument, just let me ask a hypothetical question.  If everything in every store in the USA that is made in China today, where suddenly changed and produced entirely domestic, would there be enough American workers willing to work for minimum wage to keep those products on the self?   And would the consumer be willing to pay 4-5 times as much for all those products?

if the income levels were aligned with the increased costs and the quality was in line with the costs, you might be surprised. but stuff doesn't get produced in the u.s. at the minimum wage level, it's generally at the inflated union wage level which is 4 times higher.

just like you are willing to pay extra for those tool brands for your professional work, there are things that people are willing to pay additional for (when they can afford it) that are made in the usa because they are wanting better quality. if the quality isn't significant, they will complain and seek an alternative.

[kappa]

if the income levels were aligned with the increased costs and the quality was in line with the costs, you might be surprised. but stuff doesn't get produced in the u.s. at the minimum wage level, it's generally at the inflated union wage level which is 4 times higher.

Gonna have to call bs on all this union bashing.. very very few members of the American workforce are unionized any longer..

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

"In 2012, the union membership rate--the percent of wage and salary workers who were
members of a union--was 11.3 percent, down from 11.8 percent in 2011, the U.S. Bureau
of Labor Statistics reported today."

The majority of the unionized labor force is not private.. Percentage of unionized labor has been dropping for some 30years..

One might argue at one point the auto unions held too much power.. I would agree on some points.. But the overall failure of the US auto industry rest with the upper management replacing quality products with higher corporate profits..

Also, the argument that the Japanese auto product was more quantity than quality is not true.. Their quality far outpaced the American product..

I'm a union member and very proud of it. I get paid extremely well for pushing buttons and turning switches.. Heck, I even know how to read a rotameter. But even though I am a member, I am paid because of what I know about my job, not b/c some union told my management he must allow me to work..

I like the 'all boats are lifted by a rising tide' argument myself.. If all our stuff was suddenly produced in the US, even by higher paid union members, it would not mean the failure of the economy.. Higher wages equal more disposable income to spend on more expensive products...

[kappa]

opps

[Nefarious]

       Then you've had a tough year 

Actually, it's been quite good, at least for my contributions to the cause.

In January and March I participated in two public rallies, one in Martinsburg WV to protest Senator Joe Manchin, the other in Charles Town, WV to protest a WV Delegate who had openly said he would vote against any state bills or laws that were pro-2nd. Each rally had over a hundred people.

At the end of the WV legislative session, WV passed 5 awesome pro-gun bills. Including making illegal any confiscation attempt by Federal, State or local authorities during a state of emergency or any other time. It also forced all local authorities like Charleston and Martinsburg to lift city gun laws like bans in parks and other public places and removing waiting periods for handguns. (only places in the state that had them).

You see, this was all done through a state wide grass roots organization with less than 900 members. Members that came out and decided to hit the streets to make change happen. It also forced the Senator (who is NRA endorsed mind you  ) to have to run commercials that claims he is still a pro-2nd senator. He isn't even up for re-lection! He is running scared.

As Americans it appears that we have developed a problem where we like to throw money at things to fix them instead of lifting up our own sleeves and putting in work, the NRA is one of them. The NRA operates a bend but don't break style defense that isn't helping the situation. Yes, they have spent a lot of time and your money in court fighting. But nothing towards in reversing and going on the offense.

In regards to Chinese firearms, I own 5 Chinese SKS rifles and one T-53. Great rifles I would trust my life with.

[guncrasher]

Actually, it's been quite good, at least for my contributions to the cause.

In January and March I participated in two public rallies, one in Martinsburg WV to protest Senator Joe Manchin, the other in Charles Town, WV to protest a WV Delegate who had openly said he would vote against any state bills or laws that were pro-2nd. Each rally had over a hundred people.

At the end of the WV legislative session, WV passed 5 awesome pro-gun bills. Including making illegal any confiscation attempt by Federal, State or local authorities during a state of emergency or any other time. It also forced all local authorities like Charleston and Martinsburg to lift city gun laws like bans in parks and other public places and removing waiting periods for handguns. (only places in the state that had them).

You see, this was all done through a state wide grass roots organization with less than 900 members. Members that came out and decided to hit the streets to make change happen. It also forced the Senator (who is NRA endorsed mind you  ) to have to run commercials that claims he is still a pro-2nd senator. He isn't even up for re-lection! He is running scared.

As Americans it appears that we have developed a problem where we like to throw money at things to fix them instead of lifting up our own sleeves and putting in work, the NRA is one of them. The NRA operates a bend but don't break style defense that isn't helping the situation. Yes, they have spent a lot of time and your money in court fighting. But nothing towards in reversing and going on the offense.

In regards to Chinese firearms, I own 5 Chinese SKS rifles and one T-53. Great rifles I would trust my life with.

I had to laugh at that one.  if only more people were active we would be a better country.


semp

[gyrene81]

Gonna have to call bs on all this union bashing.. very very few members of the American workforce are unionized any longer..

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

"In 2012, the union membership rate--the percent of wage and salary workers who were
members of a union--was 11.3 percent, down from 11.8 percent in 2011, the U.S. Bureau
of Labor Statistics reported today."

my father was union in the 70s. at the time, federal minimum wage was $3.65/hr and entry level union wage was somewhere in the range of $6.25/hr (to push a broom), my dad made $12.50/hr as a welder and paid nearly $400/yr in dues. at the time unions still protected workers and helped maintain jobs that would have been turned out decades before outsourcing became the corporate mantra. the problem is unions didn't keep up with manufacturing competition on the international market. every major manufacturing industry in the u.s. was unionized and it got too expensive for u.s. companies with unions to compete against foreign competition and the only way to de-unionize a company is to close it down. in the grand scheme of things and the international economic market, unions have simply outlived their usefulness.

The majority of the unionized labor force is not private.. Percentage of unionized labor has been dropping for some 30years..

the percentage has been declining since 1975 according to a couple of studies. but i kinda think they were anti-union biased studies, similar to the marijuana studies that have been conducted.

Also, the argument that the Japanese auto product was more quantity than quality is not true.. Their quality far outpaced the American product..

in certain consumer product categories, at one point in time that was true. did you ever hear about the "inferior japanese" steel that got used here in the u.s. at one time? it was during the time that u.s. steel mills were starting to close down and it caused a big stink...for about a year. then so much cheap steel was imported that people simply forgot about it. very much like the clothing industry. at a time when american made dress shirts cost $10 a piece, you could buy a dress shirt made in the far east for $3 and even though it wouldn't last as long as the american made shirt, they were cheap enough that replacing them became the "normal thing to do". now the prices of imported clothing is in some cases higher than u.s. made yet the quality is still crap.

I'm a union member and very proud of it. I get paid extremely well for pushing buttons and turning switches.. Heck, I even know how to read a rotameter. But even though I am a member, I am paid because of what I know about my job, not b/c some union told my management he must allow me to work..

you wouldn't get paid as much if you weren't union, and depending on the job you might have to compete with better educated people for the job. union guarantees you got your job until you quit or do something serious to get fired over. non-union you could lose you job if your boss doesn't get laid by his wife, and there is nothing you can do about it. a union welder can earn $20-$30/hr while non union may earn $13-$26/hr for the same skills and experience.

I like the 'all boats are lifted by a rising tide' argument myself.. If all our stuff was suddenly produced in the US, even by higher paid union members, it would not mean the failure of the economy.. Higher wages equal more disposable income to spend on more expensive products...

not even close. higher wages has a similar effect as higher fuel prices. higher wages means higher cost of manufacturing which in turn increases consumer cost and the average blue collar consumer doesn't make union wages.

[Zacherof]

I had to laugh at that one.  if only more people were active we would be a better country.


semp

I activly enjoy laying down

[guncrasher]

my father was union in the 70s. at the time, federal minimum wage was $3.65/hr and entry level union wage was somewhere in the range of $6.25/hr (to push a broom), my dad made $12.50/hr as a welder and paid nearly $400/yr in dues. at the time unions still protected workers and helped maintain jobs that would have been turned out decades before outsourcing became the corporate mantra. the problem is unions didn't keep up with manufacturing competition on the international market. every major manufacturing industry in the u.s. was unionized and it got too expensive for u.s. companies with unions to compete against foreign competition and the only way to de-unionize a company is to close it down. in the grand scheme of things and the international economic market, unions have simply outlived their usefulness.
the percentage has been declining since 1975 according to a couple of studies. but i kinda think they were anti-union biased studies, similar to the marijuana studies that have been conducted.

in certain consumer product categories, at one point in time that was true. did you ever hear about the "inferior japanese" steel that got used here in the u.s. at one time? it was during the time that u.s. steel mills were starting to close down and it caused a big stink...for about a year. then so much cheap steel was imported that people simply forgot about it. very much like the clothing industry. at a time when american made dress shirts cost $10 a piece, you could buy a dress shirt made in the far east for $3 and even though it wouldn't last as long as the american made shirt, they were cheap enough that replacing them became the "normal thing to do". now the prices of imported clothing is in some cases higher than u.s. made yet the quality is still crap.

you wouldn't get paid as much if you weren't union, and depending on the job you might have to compete with better educated people for the job. union guarantees you got your job until you quit or do something serious to get fired over. non-union you could lose you job if your boss doesn't get laid by his wife, and there is nothing you can do about it. a union welder can earn $20-$30/hr while non union may earn $13-$26/hr for the same skills and experience.

not even close. higher wages has a similar effect as higher fuel prices. higher wages means higher cost of manufacturing which in turn increases consumer cost and the average blue collar consumer doesn't make union wages.

when I started working my junior year in 1983, I made 3.35 an hour and that was the federal rate since 1981.  in the 70's it was from 1.45 in 1970 to 2.90 in 1979.

the company that I work for used to be known as kaiser steel. back in the 70's a 20 year old with no education would make about 40k to 50k a year.  the company closed it's doors in 1983.  kaiser employees had agreed to it to a lower pay and giving up a couple of holidays.  the parent union refused to allow the local chapter to negotiate as a result 10,000 people lost their jobs.  they allowed a company to shut down its doors rather than set a precedent.  not like kaiser management did any better either.

unions were great for actually forcing employers to take care of employees.  if we had never had unions you can always argue that most benefits we have today wouldnt exist.  on the other hand unions' did get a bit greedy sometimes.

we dont have an union right now, we dont make 70's money but we do make a good living.


semp

edit:  i forgot to add the reason foreign steel increased was due to a union strike that shut down almost every single steel mill in the us for months.  before then there was very little steel being imported.  then companies found out that even with shipping costs foreign steel was cheaper.  go figure.

[gyrene81]

when I started working my junior year in 1983, I made 3.35 an hour and that was the federal rate since 1981.  in the 70's it was from 1.45 in 1970 to 2.90 in 1979.

the company that I work for used to be known as kaiser steel. back in the 70's a 20 year old with no education would make about 40k to 50k a year.  the company closed it's doors in 1983.  kaiser employees had agreed to it to a lower pay and giving up a couple of holidays.  the parent union refused to allow the local chapter to negotiate as a result 10,000 people lost their jobs.  they allowed a company to shut down its doors rather than set a precedent.  not like kaiser management did any better either.

unions were great for actually forcing employers to take care of employees.  if we had never had unions you can always argue that most benefits we have today wouldnt exist.  on the other hand unions' did get a bit greedy sometimes.

we dont have an union right now, we dont make 70's money but we do make a good living.


semp

edit:  i forgot to add the reason foreign steel increased was due to a union strike that shut down almost every single steel mill in the us for months.  before then there was very little steel being imported.  then companies found out that even with shipping costs foreign steel was cheaper.  go figure.

damn, thanks for noticing and pointing out the error Semp. i was thinking about the last min wage job i had and just automatically put in the numbers, been about 35 years. did kaiser steel have anything to do with kaiser aluminum? i worked for the kaiser aluminum plant in louisiana for about a year, made decent money. i should have moved to a steel mill town...could have made a lot more money.

i remember bits and pieces of the steel workers unions going on strike, can't remember why they did it though.

[guncrasher]

damn, thanks for noticing and pointing out the error Semp. i was thinking about the last min wage job i had and just automatically put in the numbers, been about 35 years. did kaiser steel have anything to do with kaiser aluminum? i worked for the kaiser aluminum plant in louisiana for about a year, made decent money. i should have moved to a steel mill town...could have made a lot more money.

i remember bits and pieces of the steel workers unions going on strike, can't remember why they did it though.

most likely it did, but I dont know for sure.  as for the strike, I am not sure.  it was in 1959 5 years before I was born .


semp