Author Topic: Heavy Bomber Bombing Speed  (Read 2102 times)

Offline Paladin3

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Heavy Bomber Bombing Speed
« on: June 30, 2013, 05:30:50 AM »
I am curious, what airspeed did various WWII bombers drop their loads? I can not imagine that it was full throttle - station keeping itself would be impossible among other things. Does anyone know? I ask as I know there are a lot of folks around here that are well versed in history and such from those airframes and the time frame itself.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 05:37:15 AM by Paladin3 »

Offline Lusche

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Re: Heavy Bomber Bombing Speed
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2013, 05:45:23 AM »
IIRC, B-17s flew 155mph IAS and B-24s at 165mph IAS when in formations. (155mph indicated should be something like 230mph TAS at 24k)

But let's wait for someone with a proper source  :old:
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Offline earl1937

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Re: Heavy Bomber Bombing Speed
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2013, 07:31:41 AM »
I am curious, what airspeed did various WWII bombers drop their loads? I can not imagine that it was full throttle - station keeping itself would be impossible among other things. Does anyone know? I ask as I know there are a lot of folks around here that are well versed in history and such from those airframes and the time frame itself.

Thank you.
:airplane: normal cruise speed for the B-17G was 185MPH, IAS and because lf keeping formations together, this was the speed most used for bombing missions. Some exceptions to this was the Oil raid by B-24's, which because of distance of round trip, used maximum criuse settings and even then, only a handful of bombers returned to home base.
The B-29's over Japan, as long as they were above 25K, had plenty of fuel for round trip to Tinian, but when Lamay dropped their altitudes to 5 thousand and fire bombing Japan cities, some had to make emergency landings on Ok.
I have found that flying with most of these guys in the game with no formal formation flying training, its a lot easier for the formation to stay together At the slower speeds.
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Offline SirNuke

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Re: Heavy Bomber Bombing Speed
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2013, 07:43:55 AM »
I thought bombers flew at 300mph like in aces high :old:
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 08:19:01 AM by SirNuke »

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Heavy Bomber Bombing Speed
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2013, 07:50:32 AM »
Bombing speeds varied based on the type of bomber, altitude of bombing, what kind of bombing mission, threat of interception, and the lead bomber's whim.  Also, remember that the faster the bomber the more variables present to throw off the accuracy regardless of how good the bomb sight, navigator, or bombardier.    

One thing for certain in the real deal, the odds of a B24, B17, Ju88, B26, etc, etc, dropping bombs are max throttle are slim and more so none.  On the same token the only few fighters that flew around on maximum throttle were the scrambled interceptors and those engaged in combat.  Also, while I dont have the information at hand I'd be willing to bet the B25's, Bostons, and other smaller and faster level bombers dropped at a higher speed than the heavy bombers due to the obvious (higher chance of interception, less variables in accuracy, etc).  

For HTC to restrict one category it would be difficult to not have ramifications elsewhere.  Though, I think it would be not be out of the question for bombers to have a maximum allowable speed to drop ordnance for each individual bomber.  For instance, HTC cant really put a max of 240 TAS on level bombers because the B29 would need some very minute mico managing to keep it in the air that slow at high altitudes, I doubt the auto pilot could keep it level.  However, the B24, B17, and Lancasters could certainly abide by that 240 TAS restriction because that was their norm.  Likewise, the Mossi B Mk XVI probably dropped ordnance at a bit higher speeds than 240 TAS simply because speed was it's forte', speed was its only defense and I doubt it went in to enemy airspace strolling along like it was a walk in the park.  

Ultimately the easiest thing for HTC to do would be to have a more dynamic bomb spread based on the speed of the bomber, AND have the altitude factor in as well.  A B24 moving along at 200 TAS should in theory be able to get a more accurate drop than a B24 moving along at 290 TAS.  If there is a slider of sorts for accuracy, I'm not currently seeing much difference between dropping at high speeds vs low speeds and high vs low altitude.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Heavy Bomber Bombing Speed
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2013, 09:43:25 AM »
A B24 moving along at 200 TAS should in theory be able to get a more accurate drop than a B24 moving along at 290 TAS.  If there is a slider of sorts for accuracy, I'm not currently seeing much difference between dropping at high speeds vs low speeds and high vs low altitude.

Well, in AH it takes longer for speeds to stabilize when trying to drop at max speed, which means that you have to have a longer run into the target.  This isn't much of an issue for the draggy B-17, B-24 and Lancaster as they seem to stabilize pretty rapidly, but the Ar234, B-29 and Mosquito Mk XVI take multiple sectors to do so.
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Offline LilMak

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Re: Heavy Bomber Bombing Speed
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2013, 12:39:36 PM »
My only issue with bomber speeds is how a formation manages to stay intact when the lead plane has his throttles firewalled. In reality, it would be nearly impossible for the trailing aircraft to keep up. Formations should be limited to 90% military power or start pulling away from the drones.
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Offline Drano

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Re: Heavy Bomber Bombing Speed
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2013, 01:41:16 PM »
My only issue with bomber speeds is how a formation manages to stay intact when the lead plane has his throttles firewalled. In reality, it would be nearly impossible for the trailing aircraft to keep up. Formations should be limited to 90% military power or start pulling away from the drones.

It's been my experience that all at 100% does not equal a tight group. For this reason when leading bombers in events I won't say my cruise settings. I'm never at 100 %. If I tell the group my settings and they copy them their different connections to the Internet come into play and the formation gets strung out. I always go slower and just tell them to form on me.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 02:06:21 PM by Drano »
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Offline Kingpin

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Re: Heavy Bomber Bombing Speed
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2013, 01:49:30 PM »
My only issue with bomber speeds is how a formation manages to stay intact when the lead plane has his throttles firewalled. In reality, it would be nearly impossible for the trailing aircraft to keep up. Formations should be limited to 90% military power or start pulling away from the drones.

I agree bomber formations shouldn't be able to run at 100% power and keep their drones, especially when maneuvering.  I've thought for some time this should be a wishlist item.

For the sake of newbs though, could it be programmed that 100% throttle only applies 85 or 90% power when you have drones?



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Offline LilMak

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Re: Heavy Bomber Bombing Speed
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2013, 02:09:11 PM »
I agree bomber formations shouldn't be able to run at 100% power and keep their drones, especially when maneuvering.  I've thought for some time this should be a wishlist item.

For the sake of newbs though, could it be programmed that 100% throttle only applies 85 or 90% power when you have drones?




Perhaps something very similar to the stall limiter that you could shut off if you liked. Of perhaps just limit drones to 90% speed and leave the formations exactly as they are. Noobs will learn real quick.
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Offline icepac

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Re: Heavy Bomber Bombing Speed
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2013, 02:47:05 PM »
It's obvious that drones have around 110% of the power of the manned planes in order to stay in formation.

I'm cool with that but I don't like seeing drones with a stopped engine keeping up with the manned formation leader.

Offline whiteman

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Re: Heavy Bomber Bombing Speed
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2013, 03:00:38 PM »
It's obvious that drones have around 110% of the power of the manned planes in order to stay in formation.

I'm cool with that but I don't like seeing drones with a stopped engine keeping up with the manned formation leader.

I've seen them drop off pace, even pop when they've lost more than 1.

Offline Brooke

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Re: Heavy Bomber Bombing Speed
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2013, 06:09:18 PM »
People complain from time to time about bombers tooling around at 100% throttle.  They site the typical speeds of bombers in WWII.  However, fighters in WWII didn't tool around at 100% throttle, either, and I don't hear (in comparison) many people complaining about that.

Throttle setting isn't unrealistic -- it's just that some circumstances that cause throttle reduction are less common in the Main Arena (as they should be, because people there don't want to be flying 1 hour to combat area or flying bombers only when there are 50 other bomber formations ready to go).  If WWII had circumstances like the Main Arena (closeness to combat, no worries about aircraft, engine, or fuel supply, etc.), there likely would have been a lot more aircraft flying around at 100% throttle.

Other things that were not as common in WWII:  using flaps in a fight, flying around solo, stallfights at sea level, excellent weather, in-cockpit GPS.  Those things are even more of a departure from typical WWII combats than are bombers at 100% throttle.  Also, these aspects are not unrealistic on their own, either -- they, too, are a result of the circumstances of combat in the MA, which appropriately should have aspects set as they are.

In scenarios, bombers often do not fly around at 100% throttle because it's hard to keep your bomb group formed up at 100% throttle (i.e., for one of the reasons in real life that bomber formations didn't tool around at 100% throttle).  In scenarios, sometimes fighter planes don't tool around at 100% throttle because there are times where they need to conserve fuel (again, one of the reasons in real life it wasn't done).

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Offline Wildcat1

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Re: Heavy Bomber Bombing Speed
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2013, 06:31:20 PM »
It's always been my understanding that the flight modeling in this game is based off what the aircraft or vehicle could do, not what it often did do in the war
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Heavy Bomber Bombing Speed
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2013, 06:37:45 PM »
People complain from time to time about bombers tooling around at 100% throttle.  They site the typical speeds of bombers in WWII.  However, fighters in WWII didn't tool around at 100% throttle, either, and I don't hear (in comparison) many people complaining about that.
In combat fighters did "tool around" at 100% MIL, or even WEP.  American, British, German, Japanese and Italian bombers maintained cruise settings (other than oddballs like the Mossie bombers) even while under fighter attack.  It is misleading to paint them as equivalent like you did here.


That said, bomber formations would need to be much larger to justify their use if they were forced to use cruise settings.
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