Author Topic: Roped.  (Read 3054 times)

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Roped.
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2013, 04:10:02 PM »
TO THE OP: The quote above from your original post is what would imply you were looking for ANY input.  Yes, you asked about "using flaps in a rope maneuver", but your film doesn't show that, so most people focused on what actually happened and the overall ACM in your film. With all due respect, you seem to be getting a little defensive, when people are trying to be helpful by taking their time to provide useful input (which you seemed to ask for by posting the film). Most of the feedback you are getting agrees that flaps usage by your opponent was a minor issue compared to the overall maneuvering and views used in the fight.  By focusing only on "flaps" I think you might be missing out on some other rather valuable points.

Let me put it this way: If you knew everything there was to know about flying the F6F, including flaps usage, would you have done something differently in this fight?  What is it you think you did wrong?

TO BADBOY: Since I took a stab and analyzing the engagement, I'd actually like to hear your feedback on the BFM/ACM aspect of this fight.  I'd suggest going ahead and posting it here, as I'll certainly read it, and it may be helpful for others who will read the thread as well.  At the very least, please PM it to me, as I am curious to know if any of my assessment holds any water.  Thanks!


Agreed, on all points.

- oldman

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Roped.
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2013, 04:31:56 PM »
:huh WTF quote are you talking about? If you cant answer the GD question I originally asked, about flaps, then why in hell are you posting?


One of the best technical trainers in the game and this is how you answer his offer for help????

To quote Badboy....




Good luck with that.

Badboy

Offline pervert

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Re: Roped.
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2013, 04:32:34 PM »
Rich after watching the film hi speed flaps are the least of your worries its wrong from the top to the bottom hope that comes across just as rude as you come across to people who actually know what they are talking about trying to help you out.

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Roped.
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2013, 05:20:55 PM »
Yaknow This is why I dont like to post video, name names, or ever go on 200. Its the drama , the egos, the implying you implied something, the peanut gallery. It was a very straight forward question I asked.

Badboy I never said WHAT I did wrong, asked for help, and was never looking in any direction for answers. I asked about flaps. Even still I know you meant well and Im sorry for barking at you. Thats for you alone.

The video is removed.
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Offline kilo2

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Re: Roped.
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2013, 05:48:42 PM »
This has been an ordeal.
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Online SIK1

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Re: Roped.
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2013, 06:32:43 PM »
 :O

The only ego I've witnessed in this thread is the OP's. To learn you first must know what you did wrong. Knowing the nomenclature helps understanding what it is that you are trying to learn. So keep on as you have been and good luck.
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Offline Triton28

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Re: Roped.
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2013, 08:37:53 PM »
Wow.
Fighting spirit one must have. Even if a man lacks some of the other qualifications, he can often make up for it in fighting spirit. -Robin Olds
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Offline Vudu15

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Re: Roped.
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2013, 04:39:18 AM »
"No odds too great"

"I was a horse ahead at the end" - Nathan Bedford Forrest
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Roped.
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2013, 07:30:11 AM »
 :rofl  i had a feeling this was going to go south...went from  :cry "i know what i did wrong but wft?" to  :furious "ef you, a-hole, don't tell me what i don't know"...  :rofl  :rofl  :rofl  :rofl

great job   :aok
jarhed  
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Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline morfiend

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Re: Roped.
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2013, 01:24:48 PM »
 Rich,

  I'll try to answer your question without the ego,yes flaps can help they increased lift can reduce the turn radius. The higher the speed they can be deployed the soon you can take advantage of them.



   Folks,this is help and training forum,it doesn't help to make snide remarks. If you feel you must,start a new thread in the GD forum,I don't have to read them!



    :salute
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 03:14:59 PM by morfiend »

Offline Badboy

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Re: Roped.
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2013, 01:54:13 PM »
TO BADBOY: Since I took a stab and analyzing the engagement, I'd actually like to hear your feedback on the BFM/ACM aspect of this fight.  I'd suggest going ahead and posting it here, as I'll certainly read it, and it may be helpful for others who will read the thread as well.  At the very least, please PM it to me, as I am curious to know if any of my assessment holds any water.  Thanks!

<S>
Ryno

If you would like me to analyse a film for you in order to verify or confirm your own thoughts I would be happy to help.

It is much easier to do the analysis with all the information, so I would prefer to work with the aces high (.ahf) film file if possible. We can do it here, or if you prefer, we can do it via PM. What ever suits you.

Regards

Badboy

   
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Roped.
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2013, 04:55:02 PM »
Terminology is a pretty BFD in aviation, not to argue the point, but bad information or communication is bad.  We're in a flight sim and virtual world, and we're not mandated to fluently speak and understand English to participate flying in it either, but the virtual aviation-terminology is identical to the real.  Ignore the critics from those trying to help on the forums (but this is nothing new).

Technicaly you're talking about ropes in regards to most players will pop a notch or two of flaps at the top of the rope - either to delay the stall beforehand or quickly recover the aircraft after the stall.  I think where you're encountering it most is in the rolling sizzors manuever it sounds like (which, if we want to nitpick, is closer to a flat sissors and barrel roll maneuvers than ropes, but anywho...).

I dont mind guys talking about it but I knew what I did wrong at the time it happened. 1. What I actually want to know is what part does flaps play in the maneuver that beat me, since I often see this in airplanes with high speed flaps. If I cared about stats I'd have broke off right when the HC broke and I saw how, and how much, he was building/managing his "E".

2. At the top of their zoom do you have to worry about HCs, Corsairs, 5`s,...ect deploying flaps and turning in on you far tighter then normal?


Some great answers to this so far, but I wanted to offer some input on it.  I think you see this as one whole question you've asked, but it is actually two.

1 - You want to know how it beats you?  Simple answer: What is the difference between sustained turn rate and instantaneous turn rate in aviation terminology.

The long:
Per the AH trainers site and TC at http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/instturn/instturn.htm :
Quote
Instantaneous Turn / Sustained Turn
by TC aka Tequila Chaser
You can classify turns into (2) categories which are Instantaneous or Sustained.

Instantaneous Turn / Instantaneous Turn Rate - where a plane pulls max G's (near 6 right before blackout) to turn quickly for a short period of time, turn rate varies with speed , usually bested at the corner speed/ corner velocity of a given aircraft. A turn that quickly expels speed and possibly alt, while an instantaneous turn is by definition unsustainable, most times to be no more than a 180 degree turn or change in direction. While usually bested at the corner speed of the given aircraft, this turn can be performed at higher or lower speeds with less benefit.

Sustained Turn / Sustained Turn Rate - where a plane maximizes it’s smallest turn radius, g - load, and speed to acquire the best possible turn rate and continuously sustains the turn for long periods of time, without giving up alt, speed, or degrees of turn.

As the above definitions have defined, the difference between the two is the period of time you're able to maintain the rate of turn. While you can achieve a high instantaneous G-load by pulling back hard on the stick, you will not be able to maintain that high rate of turn for very long because that high G-load will increase drag and slow the aircraft, in return this will reduce the maximum G obtainable. Conversely, a lower G-load produces less drag. Eventually you'll reach a point where thrust will be sufficient to overcome the drag being produced. This will allow you to maintain the current G-load and speed. This is called sustained turn rate.

You will find that most Aces high pilots rely solely on an aircrafts sustained turn rate performance speed and basically ignore the instantaneous turning ability when choosing their ride. This is usually because an aircraft with a high sustained turning rate will be easier to fly in combat. To ignore instantaneous turn rates would be a really bad judgment call on your part. A superior instantaneous turn rate can be useful for defensive maneuvering, but when used effectively, it can be deadly in an offensive capacity. This advantage can allow you to come to a guns solution faster, but the downside is that if your sustained turn rate is inferior, unless you make the kill immediately, you're in for trouble. It is at exactly this point that you'll understand why a superior sustained-turning-rate aircraft is easier to fly.

In your video the con has the E-advantage, and is in an aircraft equiped with high-speed flaps - at the opportune moment he traded some of that comfortable-advantage (alternatively, it could of been a last-ditch effort) with his flaps to gain a quick instantaneous turn that provided a guns solution on you.  It worked but is not a very good strategy, as had it not worked and you used it to your advantage, he would/could of given up his advantage over you with that flap deployment.


2 - "At the top of their zoom" almost any aircraft can deploy flaps (that is equiped with flaps and at the top/slowest moment are below their deployment speed) to eek out an advantage in regards to forcing an instantaneous turn onto you for an advantage.  But, per TCs description, this bleeds speed/E that otherwise could of been conserved by them for use in another maneuver.



The sum of it is that as you learn to counter these agreesive turning maneuvers, and progressively start to turn/fly better yourself (I ask: "are you sustaining your turns and not excessively bleeding speed/energy when you don't need/intend to?"), you'll see that the patient and disciplined fighter can often outlive and win over the less patient or more desperate.


And to be honest but not insulting, I haven't been able to watch your video, and it apears to now of been removed by the user who posted it.  :noid  I will try to be a good listener though if ya have more questions.


PS - I should of noted, it is harder for you to execute instantaneous turns with the flight option enabled for "stall limiter" - disableing it allows you to execute these bleeding-edge turns to the fullest extent in AH (including the possibility of over-doing it and inadvertantly stalling your ac).


:rofl  i had a feeling this was going to go south...went from  :cry "i know what i did wrong but wft?" to  :furious "ef you, a-hole, don't tell me what i don't know"...  :rofl  :rofl  :rofl  :rofl

great job   :aok

Humble pie, mmmm.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 05:08:03 PM by Babalonian »
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Wow, you guys need help.