Roped.

[JimmyD3]

"Smash" is something I've never seen officially defined.  I guess if I were to come up with a formal definition it would be 'at a speed above its normal level flight speed capability'.  A plane with smash has come down from altitude.

Wiley.

Thanks for the clarification Wiley & Gyrene.

[Rich46yo]

I dont mind guys talking about it but I knew what I did wrong at the time it happened. What I actually want to know is what part does flaps play in the maneuver that beat me, since I often see this in airplanes with high speed flaps. If I cared about stats I'd have broke off right when the HC broke and I saw how, and how much, he was building/managing his "E".

At the top of their zoom do you have to worry about HCs, Corsairs, 5`s,...ect deploying flaps and turning in on you far tighter then normal?

I agree Rich you want to know what happened not what its called....I would ask the guys in this area to focus on that in the future, The man wanted to know what he did wrong not the definition of what killed him.

In response to your question I have this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBsNHwYI54&feature=youtu.be

[The Fugitive]

I dont mind guys talking about it but I knew what I did wrong at the time it happened. What I actually want to know is what part does flaps play in the maneuver that beat me, since I often see this in airplanes with high speed flaps. If I cared about stats I'd have broke off right when the HC broke and I saw how, and how much, he was building/managing his "E".

At the top of their zoom do you have to worry about HCs, Corsairs, 5`s,...ect deploying flaps and turning in on you far tighter then normal?

Flaps give you more lift at lower speeds so popping flaps will delay a stall. So yes, better cartoon pilots will be popping flaps at the top of a loop so they can delay that stall. In doing so they will still be able to maneuver/control the plane that little bit longer to get the position they need for a shot. A P38 can zoom climb and popping flaps and get to 50 MPH and STILL be very controllable at the top of a loop. F4u's and F6's will have to chop throttle because of the torque of the engine but they have great flaps as well.

Flaps also help in high speed turns. In a pony, merging from a relative front quarter approach, you can chop your throttle a second pop a notch of flaps and get a tighter turn to get an angle on the bogie. It brings out those "you C******! ponies can't turn that fast!" rage PMs.

[Triton28]

I agree Rich you want to know what happened not what its called....I would ask the guys in this area to focus on that in the future, The man wanted to know what he did wrong not the definition of what killed him.

In response to your question I have this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBsNHwYI54&feature=youtu.be

To be fair, you should have a good working definition of what the move(s) was that just killed you if you plan on talking to folks to figure out how to counter it.  Luckily Rich showed us a video, so the confusion was cleared up.  G.I. Joe said knowing is half the battle.  G.I. Joe is not wrong.  Ever.

In the video, I probably stay nose high at his break and try to cut him off at the top of his loop.  It looked like you had the E to stay with him.  The F6 does zoom well, but at the alt you were at the Yak should have been up to the task.  That said, I don't think you lost the fight by going nose low.  It looked like you missed a pretty good overshoot opportunity as he's coming off the top by your right wing.  A nose high roll to the left and maybe a throttle reduction might have worked out well.  Once you let him off the hook on that overshoot, he did the right thing and got on top and stayed there.  I'd say you were closer to winning/surviving this fight than you might think.

*edit* - I screw up flaps at the top of loops too.  It's generally a good idea to hit them in any plane, my issue is usually hitting them too late.  Imo, if your nose is already falling off, you're a little late with flaps.

[Rich46yo]

In a pony, merging from a relative front quarter approach, you can chop your throttle a second pop a notch of flaps and get a tighter turn to get an angle on the bogie. It brings out those "you C******! ponies can't turn that fast!" rage PMs.

I have seen skilled 51 drivers do that. What is the fastest flaps will deploy in a mustang?

[The Fugitive]

I have seen skilled 51 drivers do that. What is the fastest flaps will deploy in a mustang?

I have one film I like to watch before I go flying. It's call "51luvs" with BigR doing to pony flying. He comes into the fight at around 5k and 350 MPH against 5 cons (spits and KIs) He will pull his  first turn on the merge dropping a notch of flaps at 320 mph, pull hard and bring the flaps back up in a second or so. It's enough to cut the corner a bit more and get in on the first spit to get a good rope. A number of times he drags them up as he drops 2 or 3 notches of flaps and get under 100 mph to get a good guns pass in which he fires off a burst or two to get the kill.

Great aim, knowing your plane, and knowing the other planes add up to a bunch of kills in under 15 minutes.

[nrshida]

Your call sign is Hurless Rich46yo? I wanted to see who the F6F pilot was but I couldn't find any deaths to an F6F in a Yak in the present tour.

I'm guessing either Dodger, Greebo, DrZeus or Bruv119. Those chaps don't make many mistakes 

[Rich46yo]

No its not, and I dont like using names when showing film without permission of the other player.

[nrshida]

No its not, and I dont like using names when showing film without permission of the other player.

Very decent of you 

[Vudu15]

You know that guy was Bish and BushLT knows how to fly a F6F.

[Badboy]

I know what I did wrong.

Hi Rich46yo

I just watched your film, and read your subsequent comments here and I can't see anything that supports your quote.

It looks to me as though you don't really know what went wrong in that fight. Your questions about flaps also suggest you may be looking in the wrong direction for answers.

The good news is that from watching the film I can identify a number of gross BFM errors, some of which were repeated, and all of which are fairly easy to learn how to correct.

If you would like a correct analysis please feel free to PM me.

Regards

Badboy

[Rich46yo]

  WTF quote are you talking about? If you cant answer the GD question I originally asked, about flaps, then why in hell are you posting?

Hi Rich46yo

I just watched your film, and read your subsequent comments here and I can't see anything that supports your quote.

It looks to me as though you don't really know what went wrong in that fight. Your questions about flaps also suggest you may be looking in the wrong direction for answers.

The good news is that from watching the film I can identify a number of gross BFM errors, some of which were repeated, and all of which are fairly easy to learn how to correct.

If you would like a correct analysis please feel free to PM me.

[Badboy]

WTF quote are you talking about?

The one that I quoted at the top of my response, similar to the one I am now quoting above.

If you cant answer the GD question I originally asked, about flaps, then why in hell are you posting?

Yes, I can answer your question about flaps, and had you asked the question without posting the film I would have answered more directly. However, I assumed that your question was related to the events in the film and from the film you posted it was clear that the flap employment you were asking about would have made little or no difference to the outcome. So I was simply offering to help with what happened in the film that actually did make a difference to the outcome.

Good luck with that.

Badboy

[pervert]

WTF quote are you talking about? If you cant answer the GD question I originally asked, about flaps, then why in hell are you posting?

You'd wonder why anyone would really bother helping you with that attitude 

[Kingpin]

Thanks for any input.  

TO THE OP: The quote above from your original post is what would imply you were looking for ANY input.  Yes, you asked about "using flaps in a rope maneuver", but your film doesn't show that, so most people focused on what actually happened and the overall ACM in your film. With all due respect, you seem to be getting a little defensive, when people are trying to be helpful by taking their time to provide useful input (which you seemed to ask for by posting the film). Most of the feedback you are getting agrees that flaps usage by your opponent was a minor issue compared to the overall maneuvering and views used in the fight.  By focusing only on "flaps" I think you might be missing out on some other rather valuable points.

Let me put it this way: If you knew everything there was to know about flying the F6F, including flaps usage, would you have done something differently in this fight?  What is it you think you did wrong?

TO BADBOY: Since I took a stab and analyzing the engagement, I'd actually like to hear your feedback on the BFM/ACM aspect of this fight.  I'd suggest going ahead and posting it here, as I'll certainly read it, and it may be helpful for others who will read the thread as well.  At the very least, please PM it to me, as I am curious to know if any of my assessment holds any water.  Thanks!

<S>
Ryno