Author Topic: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?  (Read 4018 times)

Offline morfiend

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #45 on: July 09, 2013, 04:24:09 PM »
 :rofl :rofl :rofl

 what most of you call a Ho I call a John Wayne merge,fly straight in guns ablazing!

     Oh ya be a man and shoot me in the back!!!


  A much wiser man than me once said treat others the way you want to be treated,or something to that affect.  If everyone just did this simple little thing AH would be a much better place.
 I all but gave up flying in the mains because of PM's and vox rants,when a player tuned to me and started a triad of words I'd never say infront of my mother I said that's it. Lucky for me there is FSO and the TA and someone not so bright decieded I'd make some type of trainer so I hung around!
   These days when I do fly in the mains it's with JG11 and I almost never talk on range,with a few exceptions to say hey to old friends.

  Where am I going with this,good question as I'm not sure except to say if everyone treat others as they wished to be treated then AH would be a much better game!
 Will it end the Ho's,ganging,vultching or win the war at all cost,no because that's been around since day 1 but they way players treat each other has change a lot over the years and that change hasn't been a good one!!!



      :salute

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2013, 04:30:42 PM »

I do not understand one thing.
Some guys as expressed before want frequent missions and squad action that creates a more colloquial environment; both a camaraderie as well as a culture of behaviour and excellence, group play etc. At the same time some squads like the V dudes and others are insulted and said to be using numbers to win the war instear of skill and good game play. How does that come together. You want squad operation and missions, but insult squads and players that do missions.



What the V dudes did ... as well as the Alchemist and other large squads did was to take large numbers of unskilled players and rolled base after base. This works very well as there is no way to stop such a large group. Players are not going together and sit in a tower 30+ strong in the off chance they will be in a position to intercept a mission. Even if only 10 of those 30+ hit their target you can make it work. Had the V dudes or any other large group used tactics and split their forces to try and take 2 or more bases at the same time, there would have been chance to defend in some places and maybe stop one prong of the attack, or more if the defensive side could get organized quick enough.

Having a "chance" draws people into the battle. Always being over whelmed by numbers causes players to stop defending (or attacking if the attack force is the one being over whelmed) and in frustration, quit. It's no fun being crushed all the time, on top of that, it gets boring wining all the time with out opposition and so again we lose players. The "honorable" and classy thing to do is to make mission fun for both sides. It is a game and we are all here to have fun right?

Agreed on the PM rants.  At long last, I finally get the difference between the way you guys look at it and the way I do.  To you, ganging and vulching is on par with cheating.  To me, it's not.  If that's all you do all the time, bad form for sure, but I don't consider it on par with bona fide cheating.  While I don't generally go out expressly looking to gang and vulch, if the opportunity presents itself and it makes sense for my side, yeah I will.

From within the context of the game, I just see it as the player's responsibility not to up into a vulch, and not to dive into a cloud of red alone and expect anything other than the obvious.

My humble opinion on violence in the real world is it shouldn't be used in half measures.  If things are at the point where violence is necessary, there's no such thing as overkill.

Wiley.

I wouldn't say it's like cheating, but I would say it is like poor play.

 Look at it this way. NFL no longer has a cap and one team buys up all the best players. Now they win every game including the Super Bowl. While it isn't cheating, it is hardly fair. But hey, it's only a game. How long would the NFL last? how long before all those fans start watching hockey instead?

This game can easily be looked at much the same way. If your always in the horde no body ( or very few) are going to want fight against you so you have less fun as there are fewer targets. Or if your on the other side you get frustrated (especially newer or less skilled players) of always looking for a fight and mostly only finding the horde to go against. While it's not the "hordes" (or those players that are making up the horde) responsibility to ensure others have fun in this game wouldn't it make sense that if they showed a bit of class, or honor it could help make things better all around?

Is it honor that makes me look down at 5 guys chasing a single con and say "naw, I'll hold off and wait for the next guy". Is it honor when I see a lone guy flying along and I tell my wingman "you get him I'll fly high cover". I don't know, but I think it makes it more fun for all involved.

What can be done? I don't know, it may be too far gone to be brought back with out some major help. Maybe HTC is going to have to step in with a few rules to "guide" game play beck to a more "player friendly" state.

When I first started there were players that you looked up to. You knew who the better fighters were, the guys who ran the best missions and so on. They were helpful and considerate. They had no problem teaching you how to fight, plan, bomb, or execute any of those. Today we have braggarts, chest thumpers, and general A holes creating a toxic playing arena. It is surprising any new players stay after their 2 weeks are up.    

Offline Arlo

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2013, 04:35:05 PM »
Look at it this way. NFL no longer has a cap and one team buys up all the best players. Now they win every game including the Super Bowl. While it isn't cheating, it is hardly fair. But hey, it's only a game. How long would the NFL last? how long before all those fans start watching hockey instead?

This game can easily be looked at much the same way.

No offense but I'm not buying this analogy ... although I do understand the feeling behind it.

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2013, 04:43:11 PM »
No offense but I'm not buying this analogy ... although I do understand the feeling behind it.

What don't you "buy" about it? It's an analogy and paints the picture of what we have doesn't it? An overwhelming, unstoppable team continuing to crush all opposition. The effects and out come would surely be the same. Lose of interest and people leaving.


Offline Arlo

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2013, 04:53:52 PM »
What don't you "buy" about it? It's an analogy and paints the picture of what we have doesn't it? An overwhelming, unstoppable team continuing to crush all opposition. The effects and out come would surely be the same. Lose of interest and people leaving.

I don't buy that things are designed to be unfair in the game. If anything, things are designed to be completely fair in AHII. What you're describing is unfairness by design. Circumstance is another thing. We've all logged on when circumstances created more of a challenge at one time or another. Maybe even an 'insurmountable' one (depending on what your 'fun goal' was and how other players impacted it).

But driving away player base because of said circumstance? This game would have died many deaths since Beta if that were the case.

Having said that ... I love your cartoon commentaries (very much so):

Such as:



I think such creativity and sense of humor would go much farther than what other players are apparently frustrated into doing. I only wish more of the player base could see them.

That leaves behaving like grown-ups.

 :salute :cheers:

Offline Wiley

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2013, 04:56:57 PM »
This game can easily be looked at much the same way. If your always in the horde no body ( or very few) are going to want fight against you so you have less fun as there are fewer targets. Or if your on the other side you get frustrated (especially newer or less skilled players) of always looking for a fight and mostly only finding the horde to go against. While it's not the "hordes" (or those players that are making up the horde) responsibility to ensure others have fun in this game wouldn't it make sense that if they showed a bit of class, or honor it could help make things better all around?

It's the open world aspect of the game that is both its best feature and its worst feature.  You can do whatever you want, for good or ill.  Personally I love it because I can create whatever situation I want for myself either by upping into the vulch at a base take attempt, or taking off from the next base over to try to have more of an effect when I get there, or porking the base they're coming out of to hamper them.

Occasionally it turns into whackamole because they're moving too fast, but in my experience sometimes you've got enough people doing the same thing you're doing to make it fun.

It seems to me what a lot of people are looking for is a clearly defined goal that they can accomplish quickly, and some means of having a 'fair fight' enforced by the game.  That's just not the way this game is set up.  That's more Counterstrike style gameplay.

Quote
When I first started there were players that you looked up to. You knew who the better fighters were, the guys who ran the best missions and so on. They were helpful and considerate. They had no problem teaching you how to fight, plan, bomb, or execute any of those. Today we have braggarts, chest thumpers, and general A holes creating a toxic playing arena. It is surprising any new players stay after their 2 weeks are up.    

I went through my total newb phase in WBs, getting help from the kind of players you describe here.  In relative terms, I started to notice the same thing happening over there, and figured if it was getting like that over there, I may as well have a better game to play while the chest thumpers thump so I came here.  Not sure how I'd have wound up if I'd started here cold.

What don't you "buy" about it? It's an analogy and paints the picture of what we have doesn't it? An overwhelming, unstoppable team continuing to crush all opposition. The effects and out come would surely be the same. Lose of interest and people leaving.

It's not so much the horde is unstoppable, it's that people aren't willing to put in the effort to form a cohesive defense.  Sometimes the right people arrive in enough numbers and a good battle ensues.  Most of the time most people don't bother.  Not enough people are willing to play defense because unlike football, defense does not win you anything here.

P.S.  *snrk* hadn't seen that cartoon before...  :rofl

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

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Offline guncrasher

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2013, 05:07:51 PM »
why cant you have Honor in a game??????

you would play Chess with Honor wouldn't you?

Honor..... like I said..... is in all things that the one who has Honor does...whether it be in a online game or a business deal......

it is not Honor if it is turned off during a silly online game.



ink neither is killing a new guy or a guy with 1/10 the skill of yours time after time.  what honor is that?  is there honor in flying in a 262 low on the ground picking guys off?  is there honor in flying lancs so high up just to get a #1 rank?  is there honor staying just outside of a field picking guys off and pretending that is not vulching?

we all have different definitions of what honor is.  not saying you are without honor but it's childish that in a pretend game we also pretend to be more honorable than the other player.

we are all here to have fun, we arent samurai in training trying to learn the bushido code.  and if I can go in a ho you and we both laugh about it then that's what the game is about.


semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline RedBull1

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2013, 05:13:33 PM »
ink neither is killing a new guy or a guy with 1/10 the skill of yours time after time.  what honor is that?  is there honor in flying in a 262 low on the ground picking guys off?  is there honor in flying lancs so high up just to get a #1 rank?  is there honor staying just outside of a field picking guys off and pretending that is not vulching?

we all have different definitions of what honor is.  not saying you are without honor but it's childish that in a pretend game we also pretend to be more honorable than the other player.

we are all here to have fun, we arent samurai in training trying to learn the bushido code.  and if I can go in a ho you and we both laugh about it then that's what the game is about.


semp
He actually brings up a good point, I have no honor :uhoh :eek:
"There is absolutely no point discussing anything on the BBS, it's mostly populated by people who are right about everything, no one listens and everyone is just talking. People will argue over the shape of an egg." -Anonymous

Offline ink

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2013, 05:19:50 PM »
ink neither is killing a new guy or a guy with 1/10 the skill of yours time after time.  what honor is that?  is there honor in flying in a 262 low on the ground picking guys off?  is there honor in flying lancs so high up just to get a #1 rank?  is there honor staying just outside of a field picking guys off and pretending that is not vulching?

we all have different definitions of what honor is.  not saying you are without honor but it's childish that in a pretend game we also pretend to be more honorable than the other player.

we are all here to have fun, we arent samurai in training trying to learn the bushido code.  and if I can go in a ho you and we both laugh about it then that's what the game is about.


semp

I am only gonna comment on what is in red.....

Honor is not something that can be reevaluated....if 2 people have different opinions on what Honor is....one is wrong.(of course that is if one actually knows what Honor is)

Honor is integrity in the face of opposition...standing up for what is right.....truth

I dont believe the whole hype that "right" and "wrong" is how one looks at it.....

same with Honor.

Offline Arlo

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2013, 05:28:19 PM »
I am only gonna comment on what is in red.....

Honor is not something that can be reevaluated....if 2 people have different opinions on what Honor is....one is wrong.(of course that is if one actually knows what Honor is)

Honor is integrity in the face of opposition...standing up for what is right.....truth

I dont believe the whole hype that "right" and "wrong" is how one looks at it.....

same with Honor.

So, are we talking about the characteristic 'honor' or a 'code of honor?'

Some players think outnumbering other players is dishonorable. Are they right or wrong? Is there a specific ratio that determines the back and white right or wrong since one can't be more right or more wrong at any given moment? Some players think a head-on attack is wrong. Air Warrior coded a forward cone area in relation to each aircraft that reduced damage taken. Hitech (Dale) opted not to. Are players that 'take advantage' of such right .... or wrong? Was Dale wrong? (I don't think so.) Some players think vulching is wrong. Others think re-upping endlessly from a base covered in red icons is foolish. Right, wrong or foolish?

Maybe the ideal of honor is pure but the codes vary.

Offline uptown

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2013, 05:29:32 PM »
A guy told me tonight that our fight was the funnest and cleanest he's had in a long time. I thought that was cool  :cool:
Lighten up Francis

Offline guncrasher

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2013, 05:31:38 PM »
I am only gonna comment on what is in red.....

Honor is not something that can be reevaluated....if 2 people have different opinions on what Honor is....one is wrong.(of course that is if one actually knows what Honor is)

Honor is integrity in the face of opposition...standing up for what is right.....truth

I dont believe the whole hype that "right" and "wrong" is how one looks at it.....

same with Honor.

I totally agree with you.  but this is not real life, it's a cartoon game that we play for fun.  how we play is not a representation of what we are.  if this was a representation of what we are then most of us wouldnt play it as we would think that killing, somebody just because we can, is wrong. we dont play this game to defend family, god and country.  we play it to have fun and joke around.


semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline gyrene81

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2013, 05:42:03 PM »
I am only gonna comment on what is in red.....

Honor is not something that can be reevaluated....if 2 people have different opinions on what Honor is....one is wrong.(of course that is if one actually knows what Honor is)

Honor is integrity in the face of opposition...standing up for what is right.....truth

I dont believe the whole hype that "right" and "wrong" is how one looks at it.....

same with Honor.
how far back in human history would you like look at to test your theory?  :D
at several points in time, some peoples considered genocide to be an "honorable" practice. at another point in time, indentured servitude and/or outright slavery were considered "honorable". at several points in time it was "honorable" to send 10,000 men into battle against a village of several hundred. there was the period of history where some peoples considered it "honorable" to commit suicide. during world war 2 it wasn't dishonorable to drop thousands of tons of bombs on civilians, repeatedly...or vaporize 2 cities full of women and children with atomic bombs.

perspective sir, perspective.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline ink

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2013, 05:50:00 PM »
So, are we talking about the characteristic 'honor' or a 'code of honor?'

Some players think outnumbering other players is dishonorable. Are they right or wrong? Is there a specific ratio that determines the back and white right or wrong since one can't be more right or more wrong at any given moment? Some players think a head-on attack is wrong. Air Warrior coded a forward cone area in relation to each aircraft that reduced damage taken. Hitech (Dale) opted not to. Are players that 'take advantage' of such right .... or wrong? Was Dale wrong? (I don't think so.) Some players think vulching is wrong. Others think re-upping endlessly from a base covered in red icons is foolish. Right, wrong or foolish?

Maybe the ideal of honor is pure but the codes vary.

well lots a questions......

I am not capable of explaining it any better then I have.....


I totally agree with you.  but this is not real life, it's a cartoon game that we play for fun.  how we play is not a representation of what we are.  if this was a representation of what we are then most of us wouldnt play it as we would think that killing, somebody just because we can, is wrong. we dont play this game to defend family, god and country.  we play it to have fun and joke around.


semp


no........I don't play for "fun" never have.......I play to kill people and not go to prison....I have "fun" killing people.....

that is fact.... never have I said anything different.....although as time went by I have become more about a great fight.....but I still want that kill.
 my personal Honor wont allow me to Kill at all costs....even though I want to kill him/her I don't want an "easy" kill I want to earn my kills or at the minimum...make them work for my death.


how far back in human history would you like look at to test your theory?  :D
at several points in time, some peoples considered genocide to be an "honorable" practice. at another point in time, indentured servitude and/or outright slavery were considered "honorable". at several points in time it was "honorable" to send 10,000 men into battle against a village of several hundred. there was the period of history where some peoples considered it "honorable" to commit suicide. during world war 2 it wasn't dishonorable to drop thousands of tons of bombs on civilians, repeatedly...or vaporize 2 cities full of women and children with atomic bombs.

perspective sir, perspective.


all those things listed (except seppuku) are far from Honorable.

Offline SPKmes

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2013, 05:57:59 PM »
how far back in human history would you like look at to test your theory?  :D
at several points in time, some peoples considered genocide to be an "honorable" practice. at another point in time, indentured servitude and/or outright slavery were considered "honorable". at several points in time it was "honorable" to send 10,000 men into battle against a village of several hundred. there was the period of history where some peoples considered it "honorable" to commit suicide. during world war 2 it wasn't dishonorable to drop thousands of tons of bombs on civilians, repeatedly...or vaporize 2 cities full of women and children with atomic bombs.

perspective sir, perspective.

 :huh