Author Topic: p51d probem  (Read 779 times)

Offline JACKAL123

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p51d probem
« on: July 17, 2013, 01:04:42 PM »
im having problems with the p51d because it seems like when they know im coming down on them, they turn at the last second as i cant turn with them becuase i am going to fast. Is there anyway to stay on there trail?

Offline gyrene81

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Re: p51d probem
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2013, 01:23:25 PM »
several things you can do...chop throttle as you're diving, and/or use the rudder to slow yourself down, or i think maybe learn how to do a high yo-yo...i generally chop throttle and use the rudder just to keep from over shooting, unless there are multiple cons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRBFSxGV0Jc
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Offline Karnak

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Re: p51d probem
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2013, 01:27:27 PM »
Chop throttle, slow down and turn with me.   :t

No, seriously, you need to learn to attack more effectively.  At a guess I'd say come in steeper so that you can use your roll rate to adjust to their break and put bullets in their path, but without knowing more about your attack profile I can't say more.
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Offline uptown

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Re: p51d probem
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2013, 01:48:22 PM »
Chop throttle yes but........Just be careful getting too slow just yet in the Pee51 down low or you'll be ripe pickings. Try to fly to where your con will be..not where he's at. Use a notch of flaps to bring that nose around if need be. Also practice your high and low yo-yos.

Can you post a screenshot of your stick scalings? You may gain some turn response by adjusting a few things.
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Offline Kingpin

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Re: p51d probem
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2013, 02:03:29 PM »
im having problems with the p51d because it seems like when they know im coming down on them, they turn at the last second as i cant turn with them becuase i am going to fast. Is there anyway to stay on there trail?

Gyrene and Karnak pretty much nailed it by saying you want to utilize the vertical ("high yo-yo" maneuver specifically) and attack from ABOVE, using roll to turn for your lead/shot on the second, or even third pass.  The high yo-yo is your best friend in the P51D.  It is especially effective in the MA, where most people expect you to make one pass and extend to 3K+, instead of rolling back in aggressively.  You can catch some people, thinking their tight turn(s) saved them, while you are already rolling back into guns range.

The high yo-yo may be something you need to get with a trainer to demonstrate and practice.  Once you see it in action and do it a few times, it should click for you.

Here is a post I made recently where I was in a high speed Pony (P51D) attacking a slower tight-turning C205.  I do not expect to get a shot on the first pass.  Instead, I force the con to maneuver, then execute a vertical turn (high yo-yo).  In the example below, note my position at point "C" where I am above the turn circle of the C205, so I can easily use roll to change direction and get the lead angle for the shot, regardless of how tight he turns.  

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,349520.msg4616493.html#msg4616493

Often, it takes several such passes to get the shot, but every time you force a hard break turn, you are slowing him and limiting his options, while you are keeping your E advantage above the con.  Patience while keeping the pressure on your opponent is the key to doing this effectively, especially against a competent opponent.

By the way, those Requiem films are excellent for learning and applying ACM and I recommend watching them all.

<S>
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« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 02:06:08 PM by Kingpin »
Quote from: bozon
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: p51d probem
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2013, 02:11:19 PM »
lol, oh poopsticks...i read the op wrong, didn't realize he's flying the pony. dam, i hope he doesn't figure it out or has a slow reaction time.
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Offline SIK1

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Re: p51d probem
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2013, 03:42:49 PM »
Try to get some time with a trainer. A little one on one time with one of the excellent trainers we have in AH can be very beneficial.
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Offline morfiend

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Re: p51d probem
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2013, 03:47:25 PM »
 Jackal,


  It sounds like you need to learn the"lag roll",this will allow you to keep most of your E state while keeping a pursuit angle.

  The basic lag roll involves rolling away from the direction of turn,yes this sound counterproductive but there's a method to the madness. What you do is to roll your lift vector away from the turn and do a corkscrew type barrel roll in a upward direction as you come out of the roll you will be in a lag pursuit position.

   You don't need to slow or chop throttle,although that can help if the plane you're attacking is much slower than yours.

  I looked for a link on the trainers site that shows a lag roll but there doesn't seem to be anything that shows the flight paths.

     I'm usually in the training arena 9pm till 11 pm eastern,look me upi and I can go over this technique with you and maybe help you achieve your goal.



    :salute

Offline JACKAL123

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Re: p51d probem
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2013, 10:41:57 PM »
well i learned the yoyo from (from one of these guy that posted here,... i dont know his forum name but he did a great job on teaching me) and its acctualy helped quite alot and it works really effectivly, i went againts a spit and had no problem with his turns.(I still need a littlle more practice buts its getting easy to me) Im not having problems anymore with keeping on there trail now but he told me to learn the lag roll from morfiend which i want to do tomorrow so if your in the trainers lobby tomorrow morfriend i would like to know how to the lag roll. thanks
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 10:47:08 PM by JACKAL123 »

Offline Kingpin

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Re: p51d probem
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2013, 11:42:40 PM »
well i learned the yoyo from (from one of these guy that posted here,... i dont know his forum name but he did a great job on teaching me) and its acctualy helped quite alot and it works really effectivly, i went againts a spit and had no problem with his turns.(I still need a littlle more practice buts its getting easy to me) Im not having problems anymore with keeping on there trail now but he told me to learn the lag roll from morfiend which i want to do tomorrow so if your in the trainers lobby tomorrow morfriend i would like to know how to the lag roll. thanks

Hey Jackal,

That was me you found in the TA today (Rynorush in game).  You happened to catch me just prior to a VF-17 training session, so the timing was good.  Nice to hear you've already put the high yo-yo into practice and are having an easier time with those pesky Spits.  :) I'm glad I could help.

Definitely work with Morfiend when you can (or any of the training staff); they are a wealth of knowledge and here to help.

Welcome back to Aces High and good hunting, sir!

<S>

Ryno
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 02:40:01 AM by Kingpin »
Quote from: bozon
For those of us playing this game for well over a decade, Aces High is more of a social club. The game just provides the framework. I keep logging in for the people and Pipz was the kind that you keep coming to meet again.

Offline morfiend

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Re: p51d probem
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2013, 08:43:48 AM »
well i learned the yoyo from (from one of these guy that posted here,... i dont know his forum name but he did a great job on teaching me) and its acctualy helped quite alot and it works really effectivly, i went againts a spit and had no problem with his turns.(I still need a littlle more practice buts its getting easy to me) Im not having problems anymore with keeping on there trail now but he told me to learn the lag roll from morfiend which i want to do tomorrow so if your in the trainers lobby tomorrow morfriend i would like to know how to the lag roll. thanks

  Jackal,

  I must apologize,RL has been kicking me in the butt lately and I haven't had time to log on all week so far,havent even installed the update to try and learn all the new rides.

    I hope to log on this evening and should be in the TA at my usual times so if you can make it I will be glad to show you how to do a lag roll. It's actually very close to a high yoyo,only real difference is the added roll away from the pursuit curve.


   I find many players have trouble visualizing how to use the roll,it can be a very usefull manouver. You can roll left to turn right and vice versa,since most are used to driving or riding a bike,they tend to just bank right or left to reverse a turn. This often leads to the player crossing the enemies gunsight,had they of roll under to reverse the turn,the enemy may not even see the move,especially if they were pulling lead for a shot.

  God willing and if the water don't rise,I hope to see you{Jackal} in the TA this evening!


   :salute

Offline Babalonian

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Re: p51d probem
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2013, 05:43:59 PM »
well i learned the yoyo from (from one of these guy that posted here,... i dont know his forum name but he did a great job on teaching me) and its acctualy helped quite alot and it works really effectivly, i went againts a spit and had no problem with his turns.(I still need a littlle more practice buts its getting easy to me) Im not having problems anymore with keeping on there trail now but he told me to learn the lag roll from morfiend which i want to do tomorrow so if your in the trainers lobby tomorrow morfriend i would like to know how to the lag roll. thanks

Excellent to hear.

The lag roll....

Look up the barrel roll (this is what a lag roll is, its a barrel used to ultimatley lag behind your enemy).  First lets be sure to note that a roll is useing the ailerons, and a loop is useing the elevators.  A basic roll is/can be made very quickly in your aircraft without any change in your general direction/heading or speed.  If you incorporate some elevator into the roll though (while also rolling slower) you can widen your roll.  The term barrel roll comes from the visual of the pilot attempting to fly the aircraft down a tunnel's/barrel's inside walls - essentialy the slower your roll 360 degrees and the more you coordinte elevator input into the maneuver, the wider your barrel roll.

If you grap this principle/visual (if you're not, there are tons of great threads on barrel rolls in these forums and/or google), then the next step is applying it to combat against another aircraft, defensively or offensively (and thus why the barrel roll is a favorite, very versatile and like the yo-yo can conserve a good amount of your energy/speed).

In very basic principle what is being described to you (the left of the figure below) is to fly a barrely roll around your opponent to retain your speed but quickly get behind them again (and again, and again, until they break).



Once they break, execute either a basic high yo-yo or combine the high-yoyo with a barrel roll against the breaking attacker like below:

.... the greater the speed dicrepancy (really slow target, really fast you), the higher and wider you should make your rolls and yo-yos.


If your opponent executes the barrel roll though in defense then what you may end up in is esentialy a 3-d version of the classic 2-d sisscors with the same concept, the guy flying tighter (and likely slower) corners will edge out the advantage and gun solution first - so do be AWARE... as much as it can be used defensively to your advantage, it can be used to the cons too, and all be over before you can blink.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 05:48:04 PM by Babalonian »
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Wow, you guys need help.

Offline Bruv119

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Re: p51d probem
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2013, 02:51:16 AM »
what is your in game name Jackal?   

lots of guys here prepared to help the new guy.    ;)
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