Author Topic: Is it time to adjust the difficulty in base capture?  (Read 2240 times)

Offline Greebo

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Re: Is it time to adjust the difficulty in base capture?
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2013, 03:36:56 AM »
An idea I've proposed a few times before is to bias score relative to the numbers of friendly and enemy players in the local area. So when a player scores a kill the FE would tot up the number of red and green icons visible at the time and apply a multiplier. Lots of green and few red would lower the points scored for that kill and vice versa. This would give those players who care about score an incentive to fight hordes rather than joining them.

Offline bustr

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Re: Is it time to adjust the difficulty in base capture?
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2013, 05:29:33 AM »
We in this forum don't constitute the majority of players.

People just want to be with other people having fun and hopefully not loosing(getting killed). Landing a few kills is a big moment for most of them as icing on the fun experience. Dynamic anything is to force players to act outside of their personal interests. It always sounds good and looks good on paper where it's always calculated perfectly and rationally in the fantasy of it's creator. It never accounts for the irrational reasons that players are motivated to pay $14.95 and the unintended consequences you can't cover in your good looking fantasy. Three hours a week is all you can impose restrictions on some of the customers as the door fee to play SFO. Past that they will eventually stop coming to the MA so your controls can be imposed on them 24x7 for $14.95 a month.

That's why dynamic controls abuse the customer(S) and drive them away. ENY and perking object use is a tool to control player abuse of other players which is easier to understand on a fairness basis. Dynamic controls always sound like someone has to get the shaft and left holding the dirty end of the stick no matter how much PR you throw at fun seeking average customers. Dynamic controls are no more than sticks hidden behind a curtain. The customer is still getting beaten for not following the controls even if he's fooled into thinking the curtain bashing his brains out is softer than the stick and that makes his pain OK. 
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This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Is it time to adjust the difficulty in base capture?
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2013, 05:47:53 AM »
We in this forum don't constitute the majority of players.

People just want to be with other people having fun and hopefully not loosing(getting killed). Landing a few kills is a big moment for most of them as icing on the fun experience. Dynamic anything is to force players to act outside of their personal interests. It always sounds good and looks good on paper where it's always calculated perfectly and rationally in the fantasy of it's creator. It never accounts for the irrational reasons that players are motivated to pay $14.95 and the unintended consequences you can't cover in your good looking fantasy. Three hours a week is all you can impose restrictions on some of the customers as the door fee to play SFO. Past that they will eventually stop coming to the MA so your controls can be imposed on them 24x7 for $14.95 a month.

That's why dynamic controls abuse the customer(S) and drive them away. ENY and perking object use is a tool to control player abuse of other players which is easier to understand on a fairness basis. Dynamic controls always sound like someone has to get the shaft and left holding the dirty end of the stick no matter how much PR you throw at fun seeking average customers. Dynamic controls are no more than sticks hidden behind a curtain. The customer is still getting beaten for not following the controls even if he's fooled into thinking the curtain bashing his brains out is softer than the stick and that makes his pain OK. 

No, the dynamic controls steer the selfish players who gather up in massive hordes in order to seal club others. The selfish ones get gratification of the total unfairness of the fight - and the clubbed party most likely logs off in disgust tilting the balance even more.

There should be strict penalties in place for hording.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Max

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Re: Is it time to adjust the difficulty in base capture?
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2013, 07:00:06 AM »

There should be strict penalties in place for hording.

Why and how would you implement them?

While your theory may be true to an extent, the overall premise of game play is "winning the war". Why else would HTC award the winning chess piece perk points for the conquest?

Yes, WW2 aerial combat is what lures the majority of players to the game. And, yes, a knock down, protracted, uninterrupted 1 v 1 fight can be an adrenalin rush, but there's no way that can be guaranteed by HTC or the players. Like it or not, the horde exist and will continue to roll bases.

/.02 cents

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Is it time to adjust the difficulty in base capture?
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2013, 07:40:34 AM »
Why and how would you implement them?

While your theory may be true to an extent, the overall premise of game play is "winning the war". Why else would HTC award the winning chess piece perk points for the conquest?

Yes, WW2 aerial combat is what lures the majority of players to the game. And, yes, a knock down, protracted, uninterrupted 1 v 1 fight can be an adrenalin rush, but there's no way that can be guaranteed by HTC or the players. Like it or not, the horde exist and will continue to roll bases.

/.02 cents

I agree.  HTC can't restrict or penalize those who congregate together like sheep and feel the need to take the best of the best with 30v1 odds to capture the base.  All they can do is apply a macro level balancing slider (ENY) and adjust from there.  So if all three teams have 100 players on and 1 team has 30+ player lifting together constantly and capturing base after base, there really isn't anything HTC can do, and on the same token there really isnt anything they should do.  Now if the players numbers were 100/70/50, then yes have the ENY kick in and restrict the better planes (no more P51D for j00!), but no fear the second most common choice for the drummers in the 'tard parade is the P38L and the ENY for that is 15 (iirc).

I for one think there is too much emphasis on "winning the war", I would rather see maps play out longer.  There are many more things to do than to capture a field, and none of them take a horde to accomplish. I wish that HTC would consider A: removing the flag in the towns; B: increasing the % of buildings that need to go down (but still no flag); and C: increase the % of fields needed to "winz the war".  Also, if there was some way for HTC to change the % of buildings that needed to go down before capture based on the % of fields owned, I think that would create more of a see-saw effect.  The closer the enemy is to your front door the more intense and desperate the fighting usually is, so why not reflect that?
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline R 105

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Re: Is it time to adjust the difficulty in base capture?
« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2013, 09:48:51 AM »
I miss the old 110 smash and grab or the 2 wirb town take down
This town capture change killed the ER arena because it only had 10 to 15 guys on it to start with and now it is a ghost town. I liked the old town capture system because it made map changes much faster and we didn't have the same map for a week and a half.  I can't see how making it even harder to take a base help game play. Here is a plan, Get up and defend your base with gusto when it is attacked and if you get shot down HTC will give you another plane right away.

Offline LilMak

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Re: Is it time to adjust the difficulty in base capture?
« Reply #51 on: July 23, 2013, 11:17:50 AM »
Offensive groups will always have the advantage in the MA because of the short distances between bases. It takes time to put together a mission and launch it. It takes just as much time to put up a reasonable defense. Because of the short distances, fighter missions can easily shut down a base before a reasonable defense can be assembled. No one really wants to fly four sectors to fight in the MA so distances aren't going to be increased. And they shouldn't be either. The bomber guys have a tough job as it is so I don't think increasing target hardness is a viable solution. What I would like to see is less dependence on heavy American fighters closing bases in a single pass which is why I think applying a one perk cost to 1000lb eggs for fighters is a possible solution. Perks would be lost if you don't do damage to a target and maintained if you do and survive to land. I think it would add several dimensions to the game. Medium bombers might come into play more, the frequency of heavy fighters closing a base AND providing their own CAP would slow down, it'll make people think twice before just pickeling their eggs if the mission does get caught before reaching its target, the bomber guys will become more of an asset to base captures rather than bait for the 30 fighters who already closed the base. As to the OP, I think the base capture is pretty fair as it is. Especially with the ability to resupply the town.
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Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: Is it time to adjust the difficulty in base capture?
« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2013, 12:07:55 PM »
I'd say easier capture would be better, if anything. Too many hordes, and even one defender can spoil a capture by a small group.

Imo, the key lies in detection, not in the actual capture. Reward small groups work reduced visibility on radar and darbar, punish hordes with a lack of stealth.

Reduce the size of the darbar sectors, (1/4th the current size), but have them all tied to the same map sector. 10+ people in close proximity = no NOE, and extended dot dar range.

Individuals get a bonus of 100ft NOE, and 3/4th dort dar range.

2-5 gets just the NOE bonus. 5-10 has current settings.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

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Offline FLOOB

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Re: Is it time to adjust the difficulty in base capture?
« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2013, 05:05:12 PM »
No, the dynamic controls steer the selfish players who gather up in massive hordes in order to seal club others. The selfish ones get gratification of the total unfairness of the fight - and the clubbed party most likely logs off in disgust tilting the balance even more.

There should be strict penalties in place for hording.
It doesn't always lead to grief counceling. Sometimes the clubbed party learns to stop doing stupid things like taking off from bases that are under attack by a heartless gang of selfish players conspiring to inflict emotional distress upon the tender and innocent.

They Horde because they hate our freedom.  :salute
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Offline bustr

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Re: Is it time to adjust the difficulty in base capture?
« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2013, 05:49:55 PM »
Everything that gets proposed here is to eliminate the emotional tendencies of 80% of the paying customers. Its some form of punishment for not being a die hard elite member of the 20% who truly appreciate the "Flight of Sim" Way and orthodoxy. You eliminate the 80%, which dynamic stick beatings for not playing in a proscribed manner will accomplish. You eliminate this game.

Complex dynamic human nature control processes blow up in the face of basic simple human nature and lazyness. Stop trying to control people to make yourselves happy. The doors were thrown open to the lesser unworthy masses when the price was reduced to $14.95. Now you sound like country club snobs who want to keep the riff raff out. Except you need their monthly dues to keep your golf course running. So you lie to the "riff raff" with complex "by laws" that exclude the riff raff from ever setting foot on the Tee if the board of trustees agree to pass them.

Eventually in human associations like this game, the 20% take it upon themselves to punish the "riff raff" as the reason for their perceived lack of fun. Doesn't matter if it's the "ACM Skillz", "Armchair Stratego Generals" or "Tank Gawds". You all take your turns identifying the "Rif Raff" as the source of your unhappiness with the game and trying to convince Hitech to take your word that they need constant beatings with dynamic processes to save you from your boredom.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline WWhiskey

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Re: Is it time to adjust the difficulty in base capture?
« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2013, 09:39:04 PM »
My intention was not all that!
And one of the ideas that I found interesting was making base capture easier instead of harder!
A lot of good ideas came from this,, and probably some bad ones,, I'm not sure if I like the perked ord or not, would it be plane specific or across the board?

Anyway,,,I digress,,  I'm against taking away anyone's ability to play or to fly what they want,, when they want,, I also think that large raids that shut down everything and pretty much stop anyone's ability to defend cause players to log off!
If I don't have enough squadeis on to defend, I'm left to go find some other place to fly or tank,, away from the actual fight,, I doubt I'm alone in that feeling. So maybe if bases could be captured by one player again, it would in courage more spread out combat and shrink the horde that way. 

One thing I know,, discussion never hurt anything,, if something good comes of it ,  great,,, if not. So be it!

Jeff
Flying since tour 71.

Offline JUGgler

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Re: Is it time to adjust the difficulty in base capture?
« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2013, 11:41:16 PM »


I think (at least for me ) the issue is that 20 guys in P-51s or P-38s can kill a base and basically avoid any interceptor on the way to the base.  This creates poor gameplay IMO.  But whatever is done is typically just compensated by more planes. 



This! And the whole horde capture (for me at least) was anti climactic. It was intense for the few of us that contested them, but it was also frustrating and almost always hopeless. And on the side of the attackers I imagine it is quite anti clamactic also. I believe even the horde wishes for a struggle, one they can survive and win ofcourse, same as everyone else. But the struggle was rare because many potential defenders don't want to bail from an existing flight or they think it is like beating your face against a wall or they don't wish to give easy kills to the horde etc etc, being vulched repeatedly (trying to get 1 chance at a vulcher or maybe even a goon) takes a very stubborn and self immolating soul  :D. The failure of a struggle IMHO is that defenders do not up in consistant #s to contest the base. And under the present circumstances, nor should they. Even if they did manage to bring higher #s to bear the game would stagnate terribly as captures might never happen then! Missions have the real potential to create more struggle in one mission than any "purist" could find in an entire week, IF folks could be motivated thru "risk" and "reward" to defend.

A determined horde had all the advantages with little risk and little "anti climactic" reward.
The "little risk" acts like a magnet, attracting many folks to join, kind of like a herd, most folks like to be part of something and be together, some new, some vets etc.
Little reward: they get nothing other than some "country channel" WTGs and high 5s.

The defenders have "high risk" meaning the chance of them going to the tower against such odds are almost 100%
Little reward: there is no reward for the defender other than his own personal machismo and ego as a spoiler, there is no reason for the average player to risk defending when he knows in a couple hours a horde from his country will most likely take the base back in the same "little risk, little reward" fashion.

I think there needs to be some kind of reward structure that will encourage risk. Funny thing is the reward does not have to be the same for both attack or defense. Let me splain:
Rewards for a successful capture mission could be perk points.
Conversely, reward for a successful defense is preventing the attackers from getting the perks----SPOILER!
Now we have reward or "incentive", Lets talk "risk"

Risk for the initial base attack is the same, small but now there is a possible reward.
Risk for the defense is the same, High with the same reward--spoiler. How do we get the risk down to incentivize some spoilers?
My idea (as I've said in the past) is to have basically a "dead base timer". Meaning after the attackers get their 10 troops in the base goes in to "hibernation" for a certain amount of time with an absolute minimum of 10 minutes. During this time it is unusable to any country, it will rebuild itself normally but will not be usable in any sense. Even the ack will remain dormant until one of 3 things happen.

1 - The attackers can put more troops in to shorten the timer. The absolute minimum could not be shortened, but after that each troop entered could remove say 1 minute of time. So a mission timed at 30 minutes could be shortened to the minimum with 20 extra troops inserted.
2 - The defenders can counter by getting "double the amount of troops in the maproom to offset the attackers, upon which the base would immediately revert to the original owning country.
3 - The timer times out, at which time the attacking country would own it fully functional.

I believe this idea will lower the "risk" for the defenders cause they now would have a little time on their side, and could plan a response if they so choose.
This idea also raises the "risk" for the attackers, as they now would have to defend their "potential capture" or force it with greater vigor.

I think this idea creates risk and reward for both sides and incentivizes struggle, which I believe most folks want.

Maybe the "mission generator" could be altered to allow some control over "risk/reward". IE, If I started a mission maybe i could choose the timer which would directly relate to perk reward. So I could choose say 30 minute mission for say 60 perks for all joiners.

Anyway, I'm blathering on but I think there is a way to create the "struggle" that most folks enjoy and seek.

 :salute :cheers:

JUGgler
Army of Muppets

Offline kvuo75

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Re: Is it time to adjust the difficulty in base capture?
« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2013, 12:56:34 AM »
stop awarding perk points for map reset.
kvuo75

Kill the manned ack.

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Is it time to adjust the difficulty in base capture?
« Reply #58 on: July 24, 2013, 08:05:15 AM »
stop awarding perk points for map reset.

I don't really think that is a reward enough for people to horde fields.  I truly think that for some players they gauge their self worth and their own ability on how many "winz" (base captures and maps won), they get.  Seriously.  Likewise, stop and think how many players run at the first sign of losing their advantage in a dog fight.  Instead of clawing their way back to the advantage they run.  Those are the same people who tie their fun to the number of kills landed (name in lights), their rank/score position, and how much they can light up 200 with trash talk.

I think there is too much emphasis on winning the map.  That is the focal point.  HTC could open that up somewhat by making it easier to stop the base rolling not right then and there at the field being swarmed by thirty P51D's, but rather allowing for the fuel to be reduced to %50, and a lower hardness setting for barracks (make it easier for more planes to take them down via strafing, etc).  Currently, the only way to slow a horde is to take down ords at the prospective launching fields or to intercept them as they make their way towards their next victim.

If HTC were to open up the strategic dynamics in the field there would be more options available for those of us who refuse to try and up at a field being horded by 30 enemy fighters.     
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.