Better 410 gun loadout choice

[Karnak]

Another clear disconnect from history: WEP.  At least some AH models with WEP have this unreal ability to regenerate WEP.  This makes their sorties completely unlike what ever happened in WWII, and yet still much like it.  I'd argue that the MG 131 delete is analogous if not basically the same thing.

Which models did you have in mind?

As to the gun and armor removal, I am not sure opening up field mods is a good idea.

[Vinkman]

No, The grouping is done by HTC. And in this case it's particularly useless. No way to hit the target with both guns at the ranges the MK 103 is great at. 

this has come up many times before. The 30mm vs the 20mm in a A8 for example. But knowing that the real planes didn't have infinite triggers, are these guns historically mapped?

Some triggers were switchable in real planes, but were there planes with more than two triggers? 

[Krusty]

Karnak we're not talking field mod. You don't seem to understand the systematic nature of the removal of the guns. There was even a sub-variant designation for it on the 190s and on the 410s. It wasn't something changed out per sortie. It was how the plane was configured and it was commonplace.

[moot]

Which models did you have in mind?

As to the gun and armor removal, I am not sure opening up field mods is a good idea.

I said that about armor, remembering the armor removal as status quo.. Basically all 410s had those bits of armor removed, going by the way the meeting notes describe it, and IIRC. 

Models... The 152 for one?  Those models whose WEP (IIRC) is just higher manifold rather than special additive like MW50 or water injection, obviously are different story.  But something like a 152 would not have anything like the AH "10' on, 5' off" kind of performance regime.  And considering the output difference between 152 MIL and WEP, on its own and in AH (MA, HAs) context... It's just not "realistic".  But it is still a lot like reality in that most AH fights' duration are proportional to AH WEP cycles' duration - does that make sense?

[morfiend]

this has come up many times before. The 30mm vs the 20mm in a A8 for example. But knowing that the real planes didn't have infinite triggers, are these guns historically mapped?

Some triggers were switchable in real planes, but were there planes with more than two triggers? 

 Vink,

  As far as the FW is concerned,no it's not mapped correct,the MG's and inboard 20's were on a single trigger and the outboard guns were on a second,wether they were 20's or 30's. A sepperate trigger was setup if the FW was armed with bombs or rockets.


   IIRC the same is applied to the 410,both A/C had issues with popping fuses while arming the guns.Pilots were warned to wait atleast 3 seconds before attempting to arm any auxiliary weapons. Wether HTC decides to allow removal of the MG's or not I think the weapons should be mapped as they were in RL.


    

[Vinkman]

Vink,

  As far as the FW is concerned,no it's not mapped correct,the MG's and inboard 20's were on a single trigger and the outboard guns were on a second,wether they were 20's or 30's. A sepperate trigger was setup if the FW was armed with bombs or rockets.


   IIRC the same is applied to the 410,both A/C had issues with popping fuses while arming the guns.Pilots were warned to wait atleast 3 seconds before attempting to arm any auxiliary weapons. Wether HTC decides to allow removal of the MG's or not I think the weapons should be mapped as they were in RL.


    

Ah-ha! I'm sure if brought to HTC's attention that can and will be fixed quite easily. 

To that end, is there a reference for that Morfied?

[Krusty]

There is, but there is also a logical distinction that HTC made when mapping their triggers. Most planes in WW2 just fired all, all the time.

Their trigger mapping was a matter of gameplay consideration, NOT of historical accuracy.

[Krusty]

Models... The 152 for one?  Those models whose WEP (IIRC) is just higher manifold rather than special additive like MW50 or water injection, obviously are different story.  But something like a 152 would not have anything like the AH "10' on, 5' off" kind of performance regime.  And considering the output difference between 152 MIL and WEP, on its own and in AH (MA, HAs) context... It's just not "realistic".  But it is still a lot like reality in that most AH fights' duration are proportional to AH WEP cycles' duration - does that make sense?

Oh, you know better than that... The 10 minutes and 5 minutes were based upon the engine overheating in that time. There was over 35 minutes worth of MW50 "go juice" in the 152 and the limiting factor was engine safety.

You could hypothetically run any engine in the game on WEP for hours on end dry or wet, and tests and isolated examples show this to be true... We can't run a game on that kind of anarchy. We use the official limitations on power settings to dictate if it was a 10 minute WEP duration or a 5 minute.

But you know this already. Our engines cool off and we can once again engage that WEP system. It's rudimentarily based on heat, not on WEP duration. This is true of the real system in WW2 as well.

[bustr]

Why don't you simply ask Hitech for the proper ordinance mapping to the buttons on the knuppelgriff? In effect he did that correctly with the BK5 package by separating it to the ordinance cycle button. The circuit blocks in the 410 versions are the same. Bombs or rockets were fired from additional buttons strapped onto the knuppelgriff aside from the default buttons.

Knopf A = Base package MG\20mm
Knopf B1 = Addon package, 20mm module, MG103, MG108, BK5.......
Knopf B2 = Bombs or rockets.
Knopf FT = MG cocker. The pinky button everyone thinks is for voice comm front bottom of the stick.
P(xxx) = Addon buttons visa straps for optional equipment. P(xxx) denotes the circuit used for the device.

In our game programing we already have switches A and B.
Fire All = Base package
Secondary Fire = Addon package, Weapon toggle fire for bombs\rockets.

Firing both the base package and the addon was done by holding down both buttons at the same time on the real knuppelgriff. The Fw190 A8 should allow you the ability to fire the outer wing mounted 20mm\30mm separate of the MG\root 20mm. In 109 with HUB 30mm and 20mm gondola, the hood MG and 20mm gondola were wired to fire together while the 30mm was on a separate button. In 109 with HUB 20mm and 20mm gondola, the HUB and hood MG were wired together with the gondola 20mm on Knopf B. When 109 and Fw\Ta had only the hood MG and HUB or wing root cannon, the two guns were separated to Knopf-A and Knopf-B like the game currently allows.

[moot]

There was over 35 minutes worth of MW50 "go juice" in the 152 and the limiting factor was engine safety.

You could hypothetically run any engine in the game on WEP for hours on end dry or wet, and tests and isolated examples show this to be true... We can't run a game on that kind of anarchy. We use the official limitations on power settings to dictate if it was a 10 minute WEP duration or a 5 minute.

But you know this already.

Haha.. No I didn't actually.  The most I did probably was read this info at a glance years ago.  Thanks.  I still think what I described to Karnak is true.  We have combat trim - gamey.  Standard tracers, arcade unhistorical restriction (not dig at HTC but calling it for what it is).  25% fuel load increments, idem.  DTs + 25%, almost inarguably gamey.  Auto retract flaps, basically gamey.   Did all planes allow fuel tank selection?  Probably, but any that didn't could be gamed at least as hard as "removing guns".  Etc etc.

Hitech said it (I'll be paraphrasing) and I agree even accounting for the likely differences we ultimately have in vision or passion for warbirds/dogfighting etc:  AH is not about rote realism of simulating air war.  It's purist air combat with these machines.  We have combat trim etc so that the planes/fights are distilled from "accounting" distractions. So that the substance of the planes and the fights are all that's left.

For me WWII was circumstantial.  Germany and the rest of the world gamed WWII.  Gun deletions were common enough to satisfy Pyro's (IIRC) "most common" IE "what you'd most likely see if you came across some of those aircraft in the field", and also might have (gotta check literature) come that way from factory.  And AH's trigger attributions are arbitrary, optimized for gameplay..  And optimal gameplay would be least heterogeneous gun groups.
Not being able to fire 103s alone is for these reasons the same sort of arbitrary, unnecessary cramping of people's freedom to flog our planes to the max, as not being able to omit some guns that were omitted IRL.