Better 410 gun loadout choice

[moot]

"Better" sounds possibly rude to you guys at HTC, but more elegant's always better, no?  More elegant because this would allow players to shoot only the guns they mean to, instead of e.g. MK103 and 20mm together.

We currently have these gun loadouts below, but first - we don't have 4x50kg bomb option like the 110 has.  Is this because it's somehow more/too much trouble to have it on the 410 as is, or because the option was judged not interesting enough?  I wager it's the latter: not interesting enough.  So... I also suggest the 410's guns options could be these - more adapted to players' interests - if adding a third trigger is not possible or not desirable.  

Current AH options (bold nose, regular bomb bay):
2x MG131 + 2x 20mm
2x MG131 + 2x 20mm + 2x 20mm
2x MG131 + 2x 20mm + 4x 20mm
2x MG131 + 2x 20mm + 2x MK103
2x MG131 + 2x 20mm + 1x BK5
And then the same thing with 7.9mm's instead of MG131's.

Suggested:
2x MG131 + 2x 20mm : "Factory default", lightest package with 190D-9 lethality which is still respectable for A2A.
2x 20mm + 2x 20mm : "B2/U2 (MG 131 delete)".  Just the minimum 20mm hardware (== ballast for maneuvering) you care about for dealing useful burst damage.
2x 20mm + 4x 20mm : "B2/U2/R5". 6x20 without the 13mm ballast.
2x 20mm + 2x MK103: "B2/U2/R3". 2x20 and 2xMK103, again with 75lbs or more deleted.
2x 20mm + BK5:         "B2/U4". You would fire the BK5 without having to press backspace.
So basically, what we have but with MG131s deleted in the non-default configs.

These suggested configs are historical.  Yep, the exact names are kind of arbitrary... but those are the notes I have from reading pretty much all Me 410 books, so I don't doubt they were fielded configurations, not projections.  If just referring to these configs isn't enough... I'll go dig into notes & books for exact evidence of each config.

[Scherf]

I generally use the 103s from long range - at 1k or more the trajectory of the 20mms is so far below that of the 103s that I know I'm just pooping them uselessly off into the ether - any way to map the 30mms and 20mms to separate buttons?

[Lusche]

No, The grouping is done by HTC. And in this case it's particularly useless. No way to hit the target with both guns at the ranges the MK 103 is great at. 

[Karnak]

Hmmm.

What if the two fixed 20mm guns were grouped with the 7.92/13mm guns in the primary slot and the secondary slot was used for the additional 20/30/50/bombs/rockets?

That way you'd have, for example,

Primary: Two 13mm MG131 and two 20mm MG151/20
Secondary: Two 30mm MK103

Or

Primary: Two 13mm MG131 and two 20mm MG151/20
Secondary: Four 20mm MG151/20

And so on.

[jeffdn]

Hmmm.

What if the two fixed 20mm guns were grouped with the 7.92/13mm guns in the primary slot and the secondary slot was used for the additional 20/30/50/bombs/rockets?

That way you'd have, for example,

Primary: Two 13mm MG131 and two 20mm MG151/20
Secondary: Two 30mm MK103

Or

Primary: Two 13mm MG131 and two 20mm MG151/20
Secondary: Four 20mm MG151/20

And so on.

I think this makes more sense. I've also heard that on the late model 109s, the 20mm gun pods were grouped with the 13mm and the 30mm was on its own secondary trigger.

[SmokinLoon]

Evidently you have not tried the 6x20mm's?  Far better trajectory, far more ammo, and much easier to use.  Oh, and don't forget adding in the quad 13mm's as well since they closely match the 20mm's trajectory.  That is a lot of lead heading down range. 

I think the 410 is just fine as is.  I hope to see some more people use it to bust hangers (2 500kg SAP and a short burst of 20mm and 13mm in 1 pass).     But alas, the P51D is so much more easy to use.   

[jeffdn]

Evidently you have not tried the 6x20mm's?  Far better trajectory, far more ammo, and much easier to use.  Oh, and don't forget adding in the quad 13mm's as well since they closely match the 20mm's trajectory.  That is a lot of lead heading down range. 

I think the 410 is just fine as is.  I hope to see some more people use it to bust hangers (2 500kg SAP and a short burst of 20mm and 13mm in 1 pass).     But alas, the P51D is so much more easy to use.   

Set a target at 1000 meters and 1500 meters in the offline practice. Shoot at it with the 2x20mm/2x30mm package. Then ce back and tell us which has the better ballistics 

[Karnak]

The 30mm MK103 is not the same as the MK108 on the Bf109/Fw190/Me163/Me262/Ta152.  It has a better than Hispano trajectory.

[Lusche]

Evidently you have not tried the 6x20mm's?  Far better trajectory, far more ammo, and much easier to use.  Oh, and don't forget adding in the quad 13mm's as well since they closely match the 20mm's trajectory.

Quad 13mm? MG 151/20 better trajectory than the MK 103?

Have you ever actually used this plane? 

[moot]

What they said.

There's no quad 13mm
The ballistics for 20mm is not superior to the 103s'
It's very arguable whether 6x20 or 103s are easier to use
Again no quad 13mm (that second pair is the barbettes... can you say placebo?) and an extra pair of .50's lead thruput is negligible in the company of something like 6x20 or 2x103
And... you "evidently" did trials to check that 6x20 is as you say preferable in all ways to MK103 loadout, for instance in damage/time?
Even if what you said were true.... That's no design method, to just say "this apples is good enough, forget about letting players set their tool up with these oranges".   

[SmokinLoon]

What they said.

There's no quad 13mm
The ballistics for 20mm is not superior to the 103s'
It's very arguable whether 6x20 or 103s are easier to use
Again no quad 13mm (that second pair is the barbettes... can you say placebo?) and an extra pair of .50's lead thruput is negligible in the company of something like 6x20 or 2x103
And... you "evidently" did trials to check that 6x20 is as you say preferable in all ways to MK103 loadout, for instance in damage/time?
Even if what you said were true.... That's no design method, to just say "this apples is good enough, forget about letting players set their tool up with these oranges".   

I've already corrected my "quad 13mm's" mistake.  You're late to the flame fest.  Need an ego boost, do ya?

You can tool up whatever you want, it is good to have a choice.  I've only suggested for people not forget about what the 6/20mm's have to offer.  HTC has the trigger groupings set up for a reason and to have to worry about the differences in 30mm vs 20mm vs 13mm can be a bit challenging when you're out of the "sweet spot" for obvious reasons.  Can you quote where I said "in all ways"?  No? Didnt think so.  I didn't mention damage per gun, gun package, over time, or pakage weights, etc.  I'm rather familiar with the differences in RPM and damage over time differences.  Are you? Why do you test it out and let me know your thoughts on the difference, k?  The 6/20mm's are simple, offer plenty of damage, and are uniform.  The same cant be said for having all three calibers represented for either bomber killer or ground pounder role. 

[Karnak]

Why do you test it out and let me know your thoughts on the difference, k?

Not possible to test because the MK103s are grouped with the two fixed MG151/20s.

[SmokinLoon]

Not possible to test because the MK103s are grouped with the two fixed MG151/20s.

Tell me you can't deduct using known weapon damages and OBJ hardness settings???   

[Karnak]

Tell me you can't deduct using known weapon damages and OBJ hardness settings???   

Makes it lot harder to set the durability levels when you have four guns of two different types firing at different rates and merged ammo counters so that you can't even see how many rounds of each have been fired.

You'd need to empty the plane each time you did the test, changing the hangar durability to try to find where it is just high enough to be destroyed but even .1lbs more required and it isn't destroyed, then subtract the MG151/20 damage from the total and divide the remaining damage done by the number of 30mm shells carried. Even then I don't think you'd get down to the hundredth of a pound that I have for other guns.

[morfiend]

  This has come up before,Bustr was kind enough to post the evidence. IRL the 410 had the mg;s and stock 20mm on a single trigger and the addons were on the secondary trigger. If the 410 was armed with bombs and or rockets a third trigger was used.

  Ideally it would be nice if HTC slaved the MG's and internal 20mm's to primary trigger and any other ords use the secondary,with the usual backspace to cycle the ords.

   This effectively would give the desired results.