Author Topic: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch  (Read 3934 times)

Offline artik

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Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« on: July 30, 2013, 08:50:24 AM »
Always when new missiles comes in place counter measures are developed.

1st/2nd generation like early AIM-9... just don't flight straight - break and missile can't follow.

3rd generation (AIM-9L/M, Python 3, etc) release flares maneuver and you are ok...
4th (Python 4, R-73 etc) - don't really know...

5th generation getting even hard: AIM-9X, IRIS-T, MICA, ASRAAM, Python-5, R-73M2

Now it is really getting scary. They actually see the target:

For example:

- Python 5: http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/9/1189.pdf
- AIM-9X: http://www.ausairpower.net/XIMG/AIM-9X-FPA-seeker-300.png

Basically it is like a small Kamikaze sitting inside the missile that can hold 50G and super maneuverable...


Su-30/Su-27/MiG-35/Typhoon/Rafael/F-22/F-15 do merge against each other shoot 5th generation missile and... AI Kamikaze/Missile wins
both aircraft loose...

Does anybody know what are the techniques for avoiding 5th generation missiles?

Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline titanic3

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2013, 09:25:12 AM »
Isn't it still possible to break at the last second and force the missile to overshoot?

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

semp

Offline artik

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2013, 09:45:38 AM »
Nope, according to Wikipedia even 4th generation Python 4 could follow targets turning at 9G. I assume most of 5th generation missiles can do the same.
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline Rino

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2013, 12:35:14 PM »
     Don't fly missions around noon?  :D
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2013, 12:37:24 PM »
...or better yet, stay home.   :D



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Offline GScholz

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2013, 01:49:02 PM »
You have to defeat the missile long before it enters terminal guidance. ECM and a wall of chaff can still allow you to defeat a radar homing missile, but you really have to know what you're doing and where the missile/enemy is (very difficult against stealth+AMRAAM combo). 13 AMRAAMs have been fired in anger, 9 resulted in kills. If you're within the kill envelope of a modern IR dogfight missile your chances are very slim indeed.
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Offline Bino

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2013, 03:17:23 PM »
You have to defeat the missile long before it enters terminal guidance. ECM and a wall of chaff can still allow you to defeat a radar homing missile, but you really have to know what you're doing and where the missile/enemy is (very difficult against stealth+AMRAAM combo). 13 AMRAAMs have been fired in anger, 9 resulted in kills. If you're within the kill envelope of a modern IR dogfight missile your chances are very slim indeed.

^ this

There used to be a slim - very slim - chance you might out-run a missile if it had been launched at the extreme limit of its range.  Probably not so much, any more.   :O


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Offline Rino

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2013, 04:33:35 PM »
     Radar guided missiles work best at mid range.  The hydraulics and motor can correct for larger
course changes than short <time> or long <missile fuel> ranges.

     This was very clear even back as far as the Phantom.  The allowable steering error circle on the
HUD would change size depending on the range to target.
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Offline smoe

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2013, 04:56:18 PM »
Stealth?

Offline artik

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2013, 01:50:05 AM »
You have to defeat the missile long before it enters terminal guidance. ECM and a wall of chaff can still allow you to defeat a radar homing missile, but you really have to know what you're doing and where the missile/enemy is (very difficult against stealth+AMRAAM combo). 13 AMRAAMs have been fired in anger, 9 resulted in kills. If you're within the kill envelope of a modern IR dogfight missile your chances are very slim indeed.

That is the point. There are many ways to full radar homing missiles:

- Stealth (from medium range and above)
- ECM
- Chaff
- Decoys: like ALE-55 or X Guard

And all this works because the radar beam resolution is relatively low.

For IR missiles with CCD seeker that actually sees the target it is impossible to fool it with a simple decoys unless you can "clone your aircraft" in midair

And modern IR missiles has huge range so virtually - it becomes not fire and forget - but rather fire and kill (at least it looks like).

The IRIS-T is told to have Anti-missile capabilities is it reflected in modern A2A combat tactics?

Stealth?

Does not really work against IR missiles also every stealth aircraft is much fatter target that is easier to spot because of all internal bays.
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline Plawranc

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2013, 04:55:57 AM »
The BVR engagement is the way of air warfare these days.

Missile and Radar Tech will now outclass aircraft design as the no 1 factor for winning battles.
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2013, 06:36:22 AM »
Always when new missiles comes in place counter measures are developed.

1st/2nd generation like early AIM-9... just don't flight straight - break and missile can't follow.

3rd generation (AIM-9L/M, Python 3, etc) release flares maneuver and you are ok...
4th (Python 4, R-73 etc) - don't really know...

5th generation getting even hard: AIM-9X, IRIS-T, MICA, ASRAAM, Python-5, R-73M2

Now it is really getting scary. They actually see the target:

For example:

- Python 5: http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/9/1189.pdf
- AIM-9X: http://www.ausairpower.net/XIMG/AIM-9X-FPA-seeker-300.png

Basically it is like a small Kamikaze sitting inside the missile that can hold 50G and super maneuverable...


Su-30/Su-27/MiG-35/Typhoon/Rafael/F-22/F-15 do merge against each other shoot 5th generation missile and... AI Kamikaze/Missile wins
both aircraft loose...

Does anybody know what are the techniques for avoiding 5th generation missiles?



Active countermeasures i.e. blasting the missile with laser or conventional ammunition. Probably not in use anywhere and hard to implement though.
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2013, 11:30:43 AM »
The BVR engagement is the way of air warfare these days.
Except, that ROE tends to prevent it from being used.



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Offline GScholz

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2013, 11:32:21 AM »
Not in the last 20+ years.
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Offline dedalos

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2013, 01:15:10 PM »
Isn't it still possible to break at the last second and force the missile to overshoot?

yeah, just look back, cut throttle to let it get close and then do a barrel roll. Dont forget to shoot it as it is flying by  :rofl
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.