Accidental Move that saved me

[wpeters]

The other day in the MA I was flying a 109f and had a yak on my low 6 at 1000. I pulled a move that has me baffled and cant figure out how to replicate What happened was i mad one flat spin going counter clockwise. As I came through the yak 3 blew threw my gunsight right in the middle. Can some one tell me how i did it so i can use again. It was amazing the last 90 degrees of my flat spin i led him enough to but 24 20mm in him from stem to stern.  Awesome move can i have advise please

[jimbo71]

Sounds like you did what's called a tail slide.  Usually done at the top of a climb right at the point where you start to stall.  Using flaps, rudder, and throttle (engine / prop torque) to put the tail portion of your plane where the spiny-part was.

[Wiley]

Finally got curious as to exactly what a tailslide was.  I've heard several people mention it as useful in a fight.

I'm not saying it's not useful, but could someone please explain how it is useful?  Is the idea you get the overshoot and retain enough nose control to hit the guy on his way by before you fall?  I apparently pull this maneuver quite often unintentionally in the F4U's low and slow, but it usually results in me falling backwards to my death.

Wiley.

[morfiend]

 Sounds to me more like a flat plate than a tailslide.


  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuBiMM7VGh8

  This video shows a good example of the maneuver.

 One of the problems with doing this type of maneuver is the fact that you are left with little E,a tailslide has the same issue and if you happen to miss your fleeting shot you are deadmeat.  Even if you happen to hit your enemy you better be sure there are no other enemies around because again you'll be hung out to dry.

  To me these are move of desperation and I suppose if you're going to be killed otherwise then I might attempt something like this but first I would use some simple ACM to try to stay out of that position. A simple barrel roll defence will work most times and it doesn't leave you with no options,unlike a tailslide or flat plate.


  YMMV.


     

[Zoney]

Finally got curious as to exactly what a tailslide was.  I've heard several people mention it as useful in a fight.

I'm not saying it's not useful, but could someone please explain how it is useful?  Is the idea you get the overshoot and retain enough nose control to hit the guy on his way by before you fall?  I apparently pull this maneuver quite often unintentionally in the F4U's low and slow, but it usually results in me falling backwards to my death.

Wiley.

Dang, all this time I was wrong.  I thought a tail slide was what your dog does as he scoots across the carpet trying to scratch his butt.

[Babalonian]

To flatplate or execute a coordinated 180-degree tail-slide reversal is one of the hardest things (imho) to do in this game (given some planes have it easier than others).  I've only done the 180-degree reversal thing "properly" once in this game in the P-51 (I think the trick is you got to not only execute it at the right speed/E, but at the right nose-up angle so that comming out of it you're nose-down and already regaining speed to counter the plane's desire to stall after such a move), although I've tried many times. 

It was a few years ago against Steve in a twilight-zone moment where I was in the P-51D and he was zooming up my rear with a P-38L - I did it out of desperation in a shallow climb when he reached 1.2 behind me and gaining very quickly, I hammed the rudder full right and threw in some opposite aileron, and in a blink I'm HO guns solution with him caught unaware and get a solid stream into one of his engines as he passes me on his way to the moon.

[bustr]

I was on top of a 15k furball stack and watched a Mossi6 pull this below me. It looked like he couldn't shake an A6m so he forced a plate slide causing his Mossi6 to spin like a plate while falling flat for about 2k abruptly. He recovered and flew out of the fight to regain his position with a very confused A6m high and back of him.

I see some variation of this in furballs by players who appear to have excellent control of their ride during a fight. At about the point you catch them for a solid shot. They suddenly tumble and drop like a rock. I've watched a few in wep monsters regain control fast enough that they climb back up the tail of the player they just evaded with the maneuver.

Some years back the ability to perform that with the P51D was getting exploited everywhere I looked after how to do it was well explained here in the forum. Not long after that I remember people asking each other when the last time was they could force a P51D to do that. I guess there is divine intervention.

[BaldEagl]

I did the same thing once quite by accident in a Tempest.  I was being chased by at least three cons.  I pulled into a climb and at the top I tried to turn against the tourqe.  Of course the plane wouldn't turn so I threw in full rudder.  The plane instantly spun 180 degrees and I was facing my opposers head on.  You should have seen them scatter.

I've never been able to replicate this despite several attempts.

[wpeters]

the thing is the move i pulled was a 360. in the last bit of the spin 9-12 oclock position he flew thrue my guns. It wasnt a 180 but a 360

[Rodent57]

wpeters,

The "360 part" is what leads us to conclude it was a plate and not a true slide ....

Do you perhaps have the film?

If you do, simply edit it to the part of the fight in question and send it to me,  ... I'll gladly analyze and send you a quick summary of what you did.

  - FWIW: I too would call it a 'move of desperation' rather than a 'great move' that you should use all the time.

r,
-Rodent57   

[wpeters]

Thanks guys!!!  I will try to avoid using it except for desperate moments. See u in the air

[titanic3]

Finally got curious as to exactly what a tailslide was.  I've heard several people mention it as useful in a fight.

I'm not saying it's not useful, but could someone please explain how it is useful?  Is the idea you get the overshoot and retain enough nose control to hit the guy on his way by before you fall?  I apparently pull this maneuver quite often unintentionally in the F4U's low and slow, but it usually results in me falling backwards to my death.

Wiley.

It works best in a dedicated 1v1. When both planes are slow, and both are going up and down, the one doing the tail slide will drop down faster than the one not doing it. Not quite sure how to explain it, but you're welcome to try it out with me anytime. Long story short, tail slide lets you turn around quicker than simply pulling the stick back and rolling over, which means you can reverse the other guy faster than he can.

[FLS]

Finally got curious as to exactly what a tailslide was...
  
Wiley.

A tail slide is performed by going straight up until you stop, then dropping straight back before you reverse.

In AH the term is often misused to refer to a stall turn. Just go vertical and do a snap roll. The variables you generally control are entry speed, timing of stick to side and back and rudder push, throttle for torque and thrust, gravity vector from starting attitude i.e. 45 degrees to full vertical, and flaps. Some aircraft don't do well but the F4U's, Jugs, and 109's are good choices.

[sax]

A tail slide is performed by going straight up until you stop, then dropping straight back before you reverse.

In AH the term is often misused to refer to a stall turn. Just go vertical and do a snap roll. The variables you generally control are entry speed, timing of stick to side and back and rudder push, throttle for torque and thrust, gravity vector from starting attitude i.e. 45 degrees to full vertical, and flaps. Some aircraft don't do well but the F4U's, Jugs, and 109's are good choices.

I agree with this
Back in the day---before the horde if i came across these planes and a decent stick it was a difficult fight.
It seemed to me that they could do this an retain enough e to repeat it enough times to snap shot a unwary pilot.
So even against the FM2 they could surprisingly well. I can imagine a lot of players hitting the desktop button and screaming cheat.

Fester can do this very well in the LA

[Babalonian]

the thing is the move i pulled was a 360. in the last bit of the spin 9-12 oclock position he flew thrue my guns. It wasnt a 180 but a 360

The concept is the same, first is that it is somewhat controlled (or, is initiated intentionaly, and recover-ed/able with a desireable/intended outcome), which is not easy since you're litteraly on the edge of stalling or mucking-up and stalling your ride really badly and in combat.  Second difficult task is getting the tail sliding horizontaly infront of the nose with the big heavy twirly thingy trying its best to 1)twist and 2) pull the aircraft - more of a physical art form in this game with certain aircraft than science.

Nor are you the first player to do this in AH in a 109.  Do a forum search for the "Krupinski Reversal", he even has a short clip of it to go along with some helpful description if you find him.... I don't know about recently, but 2-3 years ago you had to be real careful with exactly who the pilot was in the K4 on your 12 (!) before getting down too dirty in a knife fight with them.