Which Fighter

[Widewing]

Speaking of the F6F, I was watching the Zeno's Warbirds video on familiarization with the Hellcat, which can be found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUziAyx6hG4, and it mentioned at about 9:05 that the F6F only had a down and up position for flaps. Now this looks like an F6F-3 so I was wondering was this changed on the -5?

On a different note, why was the F6F so much more of a stable platform at low speeds than the F4U? Was it simply the larger propeller on the Hog causing much greater torque, or was there any instability caused by the gull wings as compared to the more traditional design of the F6F.

TonyJoey, the F6F-5 had infinitely adjustable electric flaps. They could be toggled to any position from full up to full down. 

[Karnak]

Do you think he actually got 80 or so (the 202 is obviously not correct) or do you think it was more in the 20-40 range?

[Widewing]

Do you think he actually got 80 or so (the 202 is obviously not correct) or do you think it was more in the 20-40 range?

I haven't seen the work of the historians who did the research, so I couldn't argue with their findings, be they hard numbers or estimates.

What I would like to see is the dates of his claims of U.S. aircraft. Those I can check against unit records. I'd also like to see his unit's claims for comparison.

[save]

Overclaiming and cheating where common on all sides of the war. German system where most robust where you needed  someone else to confirm kills seeing it crash.

In he book " a higher call" 2 german  guys of jg27 cheated by confirming each others kills.they got caught...


If  600 B17 gunners shooting at the same  109 and it explode, a good bunch would claim that guy as his kill

[icepac]

I'm pretty sure the 80 figure was arrived at by knowing the names of the pilots who were downed and debrief of the downed pilot's fellow pilots and comparing them to Iwamoto's claims for the same day and finding the descriptions matching.

The names of the winners and losers of many shootdowns are known.

[Karnak]

Overclaiming and cheating where common on all sides of the war. German system where most robust where you needed  someone else to confirm kills seeing it crash.

In he book " a higher call" 2 german  guys of jg27 cheated by confirming each others kills.they got caught...


If  600 B17 gunners shooting at the same  109 and it explode, a good bunch would claim that guy as his kill

The praise for the Germans in this regard is a myth, they over claimed just like everybody else.  All one has to do is look at their Battle of Britain claims to see that.  The RAF actually under claimed for the first month of the battle, but then reversed that with their own massive over claiming the the second and third months of the battle.

[bozon]

On a different note, why was the F6F so much more of a stable platform at low speeds than the F4U? Was it simply the larger propeller on the Hog causing much greater torque, or was there any instability caused by the gull wings as compared to the more traditional design of the F6F.

F6F had a larger wing area (resulting in a slightly lower wingloading) and a completely different design. This great stability that is often praised, also limited the roll rate of the F6F which is often cited as one of its shortcomings especially when compared to the F4U. The F4U did not have more torque than the F6F. They used the exact same engine and the props did not make such a huge difference in this regard.

Vought simply forgot that they were making a carrier plane and instead just made the best fighter they could, that may also land on carriers. This is why F4Us that had flying prototypes way before the F6F was even considered, reached carrier squadrons after the F6F already dominated that role. Grumman had a lot of experience with carrier planes and knew better what were the correct priorities for this kind of planes.

[GScholz]

The praise for the Germans in this regard is a myth, they over claimed just like everybody else.  All one has to do is look at their Battle of Britain claims to see that.  The RAF actually under claimed for the first month of the battle, but then reversed that with their own massive over claiming the the second and third months of the battle.

The German verification system wasn't yet in effect by the time of BoB. Later in the war an actual wreck had to be located to award a victory. On the Eastern Front the Luftwaffe claimed the destruction of 77 000 soviet aircraft, including 45 000 in air combat. The Soviets claim they lost a total of 106 000 aircraft to all causes, including 46 000 lost in air combat. (Krivosheyev, Grif sekretnosti sniat, 1993).

[Ack-Ack]

Later in the war an actual wreck had to be located to award a victory.

I thought the Luftwaffe required human confirmation (either wingman, squad mate or ground observer) if gun camera footage wasn't available to get credit for kills that resulted in an explosion in mid-air or pilot/crew bail out.

Then there is the complicated point system the Luftwaffe used in the Western Front for medals but that's a different subject.

ack-ack

[GScholz]

Early in the war only a witness was required, but later they also required an actual wreck. As their war situation in the East deteriorated it became increasingly difficult for Luftwaffe pilots to get their claims verified. Over the Reich is was much easier as air defense units/observers usually could pinpoint where Allied aircraft went down (these were also salvaged and recycled for their metal).

The point of the system was to ensure that no more victories were awarded than wrecks found and documented. After the BoB German military intelligence became wary of overestimating enemy losses.


Oh, and it could take months, more then a year in some cases, for a German pilot to get his claims approved through the system. The Abschusskommission, which received all reports on crashed aircraft remains found by search units checked conflicting claims between AAA batteries and fighter pilots, and awarded credit for the victory to one claimant or the other. This system ensured that no more credits would be awarded than wrecks found.

[Nashorn]

The praise for the Germans in this regard is a myth, they over claimed just like everybody else.  All one has to do is look at their Battle of Britain claims to see that.  The RAF actually under claimed for the first month of the battle, but then reversed that with their own massive over claiming the the second and third months of the battle.

im sure you may be able to confirm this but was Finland the only country in the war to claim less than what they actually shot down?

[Widewing]

Do you think he actually got 80 or so (the 202 is obviously not correct) or do you think it was more in the 20-40 range?

Here's something that drives me nuts when it comes to Japanese claims. In this case, Iwamoto.

He claims to have shot down 55 SBDs, 7 of those unconfirmed.

Here's the rub... The Navy lost a total of 43 SBDs to Japanese fighters during the entire war.

[Karnak]

Based on that I would guess his real count was in the 20-40 range.

I recall reading that while Sakai is often credited with 64 kills he would not actually claim a specific number himself and I've seen people estimate his real total at about 25.

[Oldman731]

The German verification system wasn't yet in effect by the time of BoB. Later in the war an actual wreck had to be located to award a victory.

I don't wish to sound rude, but that's crap.  Caldwell documented at least one instance where "elite" JG26 pilots claimed air-to-air kills from strafing wrecked gliders.  And I have no idea how the Nazis were expected to comb the Eastern Front looking for downed Soviet aircraft when things were collapsing around them.  "Ja, Herr Hauptmann, I understand that the Third Guards Tank Army is on its way, but we really must check out these claims."

You can believe what the Germans claimed their kill confirmation requirements were....or not.  Unlike the British and Americans, they did not have routine gun camera films to back up their claims.

- oldman

[GScholz]

You can believe what you want, I don't really care. Fact remains that the Germans claimed fewer soviet aircraft destroyed in air combat than what the Soviet records show they lost in air combat. The Germans were under-claiming.