Author Topic: Which Fighter  (Read 3458 times)

Offline Karnak

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Re: Which Fighter
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2013, 03:38:23 PM »
Which fighter scored the most victories of any aircraft in history? In one theater of operations it had a 21:1 kill ratio. The top 100 aces who flew it scored more than one hundred kills each... or in other word more than the total of the P-51 and F6F combined...  ;)
Bf109.

It also has the honor of being the fighter with the most losses in combat.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Which Fighter
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2013, 04:12:12 PM »
Touché ;)
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Offline icepac

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Re: Which Fighter
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2013, 10:24:13 PM »
:airplane: Can you share that Japanese pilot's name with us? I think I know which you refere to, but would like to see your answer.


Same guy shot down 25% of the F4U lost in air to air combat.

Tetsuzō Iwamoto

It looks like he flew Zeros almost exclusively.

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Which Fighter
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2013, 11:27:40 PM »
Which fighter scored the most victories of any aircraft in history? In one theater of operations it had a 21:1 kill ratio. The top 100 aces who flew it scored more than one hundred kills each... or in other word more than the total of the P-51 and F6F combined...  ;)

It was a shark with freaking lazer beams on it's head.
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Which Fighter
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2013, 11:32:36 PM »

Same guy shot down 25% of the F4U lost in air to air combat.

Tetsuzō Iwamoto

It looks like he flew Zeros almost exclusively.


Japanese were notorious over claimers.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Which Fighter
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2013, 04:14:15 AM »
Japanese were notorious over claimers.

In addition to the Japanese habit of assigning kills to the unit instead of the individual pilot makes verifying Japanese individual claims difficult. 

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Offline icepac

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Re: Which Fighter
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2013, 10:01:36 AM »
The kills mentioned are confirmed by U.S.

He has 80 confirmed kills while his diary has over 200 claimed.......which he never shared with anybody and was found after he died.

Offline Widewing

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Re: Which Fighter
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2013, 11:37:21 AM »
The kills mentioned are confirmed by U.S.

He has 80 confirmed kills while his diary has over 200 claimed.......which he never shared with anybody and was found after he died.

Historians who have researched Iwamoto have concluded that he had between 80 and 87 kills.

He claimed to have shot down what amounts to 17% of all F4Us and F6Fs lost in aerial combat... Almost exactly 1 out of every 6. Does anyone really believe this nonsense?
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Offline Zacherof

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Re: Which Fighter
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2013, 12:45:04 PM »
Sorta off topic, but who has th most amount of kills on bombers?
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Which Fighter
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2013, 01:09:16 PM »
If you count light bombers it will be one of the Eastern Front aces, but if you're thinking of heavy bombers it's Eder: http://www.luftwaffe.cz/eder.html
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Which Fighter
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2013, 02:23:04 PM »
He claimed to have shot down what amounts to 17% of all F4Us and F6Fs lost in aerial combat... Almost exactly 1 out of every 6. Does anyone really believe this nonsense?


Dude.  People believe that 100 German pilots shot down 15,000 allied aircraft.  This is nothing.

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Offline Karnak

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Re: Which Fighter
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2013, 02:36:25 PM »
Historians who have researched Iwamoto have concluded that he had between 80 and 87 kills.

He claimed to have shot down what amounts to 17% of all F4Us and F6Fs lost in aerial combat... Almost exactly 1 out of every 6. Does anyone really believe this nonsense?
Not quite sure how to parse your post, Widewing.

Do you mean that historians conclude that his true score was 80 to 87?   If that is seen as his true score, which Icepac seemed to use as his reference as well, is the 1 in 6 kills of an F4U or F6F claim based on the 80 to 87 historians say he got or on the 202 kills his journal claimed?  I think you're saying it is nonsense as it is based on his journal in which he overclaimed*.  I'll note I don't know the loss numbers for the F4U or F6F.

*I am not suggesting he intentionally overclaimed.  In fact I highly doubt it as he kept the journal to himself, but it is an easy thing to mistake an aircraft rolling and diving away, streaming something behind it as having been a kill rather than simply damaged when in the thick of combat.  In fact, if the 80-87 number is his true kill count then his claim of 202 would be a lot less of an overclaim than Japanese average.
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Offline Zacherof

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Re: Which Fighter
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2013, 03:11:03 PM »
If you count light bombers it will be one of the Eastern Front aces, but if you're thinking of heavy bombers it's Eder: http://www.luftwaffe.cz/eder.html
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Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Which Fighter
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2013, 04:10:32 PM »
Speaking of the F6F, I was watching the Zeno's Warbirds video on familiarization with the Hellcat, which can be found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUziAyx6hG4, and it mentioned at about 9:05 that the F6F only had a down and up position for flaps. Now this looks like an F6F-3 so I was wondering was this changed on the -5?

On a different note, why was the F6F so much more of a stable platform at low speeds than the F4U? Was it simply the larger propeller on the Hog causing much greater torque, or was there any instability caused by the gull wings as compared to the more traditional design of the F6F.

Offline Widewing

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Re: Which Fighter
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2013, 04:37:07 PM »
Not quite sure how to parse your post, Widewing.

Do you mean that historians conclude that his true score was 80 to 87?   If that is seen as his true score, which Icepac seemed to use as his reference as well, is the 1 in 6 kills of an F4U or F6F claim based on the 80 to 87 historians say he got or on the 202 kills his journal claimed?  I think you're saying it is nonsense as it is based on his journal in which he overclaimed*.  I'll note I don't know the loss numbers for the F4U or F6F.

*I am not suggesting he intentionally overclaimed.  In fact I highly doubt it as he kept the journal to himself, but it is an easy thing to mistake an aircraft rolling and diving away, streaming something behind it as having been a kill rather than simply damaged when in the thick of combat.  In fact, if the 80-87 number is his true kill count then his claim of 202 would be a lot less of an overclaim than Japanese average.

I can cite a considerable number of air battles where the Japanese over-claimed anywhere from 200% to two orders of magnitude. In some cases, no Allied aircraft were lost but that didn't eliminate the claims. It is sometimes mind boggling. One instance was a battle with the 49th FG, where the Japanese claimed 8 kills. Actual losses were zero. Yet, I'm sure the credit for 8 kills was awarded. The 49th claimed 4 kills for an actual 3 kills and two damaged. The 49th had gun cameras, and the Japanese didn't. They almost never used gun cameras in combat, only in training. Thus, in the absence of an actual wreck, there is no objective evidence to support claims. The lack of objective evidence puts everything into the doubt column.

My reference to being nonsense was in regard to Iwamoto's claims of F4Us and F6Fs. The 80 to 87 count comes from differences between historians. Sakaida says "about 80". This includes all types, and most historians find that early war claims were more accurate than late war claims, largely because much of the late war records were destroyed and commands would award kills liberally for morale reasons. I suspect that Iwamoto claimed nearly everything he shot at.
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