Author Topic: So there I was with a WHS server...  (Read 696 times)

Offline eagl

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So there I was with a WHS server...
« on: August 05, 2013, 11:07:04 PM »
So there I was, with a WHS server, made with really old parts.

1.4 ghz Pentium 3 Celeron cpu, 512MB ram.  Mobo limited to 200GB IDE hard drives for boot due to bios limitation, so the storage is on a PCI SATA card, a 1GB drive and a 500GB drive.  Networking is a gigabit Ethernet pci card.

It works fine, but something isn't working right at a very very deep level.  Maybe a PCI conflict, maybe IRQ sharing, but transfers to and from the network are VERY slow.  So it works, but slowly.  It's been so reliable though, I've used it for almost 5 years now.

So, I want to upgrade the hardware.  I've read that simply transplanting all the drives to a new case won't work because digital fingerprinting will invalidate the backup database.  Also, the tiny 80GB ide drive I used as a boot drive has 40gb dedicated to the storage volume, so I can't even just try to migrate the 2 data drives without losing a lot of data.  Fortunately MS has a way to manually back up the archive database, using a USB Drive.  So, I got a new 2GB drive and hooked it up through USB.  Oops, it is OLD USB, so the transfer of my 670GB of data is going to take roughly 1 month.  Oh I have a great idea, I'll put the USB drive on a networked computer, share the USB drive, and copy it over the network.  That will only take 1 WEEK.

Sheesh. 

I should put the new HD inside the case attached to the SATA card, except that the SATA card has only 2 ports and they're both used by data drives so I'd lose part of the archive.

Anyone have any ideas why it is so slow, though?  It is not thrashing to HD swap memory, cpu usage even with the single core cpu is under 20%.  SATA and gigabit Ethernet on PCI bus should be faster than 1MB/s over the network.  So, IRQ conflict?  Any other possible culprits?  It has been VERY reliable without a single OS induced crash, in spite of being turned on and in use 24/7 for years, and the only hardware failure is the main boot drive has been limping along with 15 reallocated sectors for 2 years and the cpu cooling fan died and had to be replaced.  Everything else just works, which is why it has taken me so long to attempt to migrate the archive to a new computer.

As for why I don't just start over, the archive includes files from 3 computers that don't exist anymore, and I want to save that stuff.  Thanks in advance for any ideas on what might be going on with the really super slow data transfer speeds over the network with this thing.
 
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Offline Easyscor

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Re: So there I was with a WHS server...
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2013, 11:58:06 PM »
Quote
Networking is a gigabit Ethernet pci card.

I used pci gigabit cards for years in two machines that were worked hard. Every 6 to 12 months, a card would stop working at gigabit speed. I'd need to remove the card, delete the driver, and then reinstall the driver. When I reinstalled the card, all was golden. That's why I eventually moved to onboard gigabit.

Interesting take on Windows Home Server's future.
http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/replace-windows-home-server-windows-8
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: So there I was with a WHS server...
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2013, 12:12:16 AM »
Several things can mess up the network transfer speeds. Microsoft has changed the protocols slightly on several releases, the latest one being Windows 8. So if you have mixed OS versions in the network that may cause the slowdown. I remember one client of ours back in the days, he had mixed XP, Windows 2000 server and Vista machines in the network. 100Mbit line was transferring 5kb/s client-server  :bhead

Another possible reason is having multicast filtering on which messes up some routers. There are a couple of tweaks you can try on registry level to restore the transfer speed but I can't remember them off memory, would have to google them.

Some users have had help from simply updating their NIC drivers - some have had to enable jumbo frames to boost throughput. Some users advice to not ever enable jumbo frames to avoid problems ;)

So if you have jumbo frames enabled, try disabling them (network wide) to see if that helps. Then you can try to enable them (network wide) if nothing happens. Also if your whs has dual NICs in use and you're not bonding them, try to unplug the other to see if that restores your speed.

Other steps to take:

Disable media broadcast feature if you don't use it
Check all whs drives settings, if any are in PIO mode, uninstall the drive and reinstall to restore DMA (http://www.blog.gartonhill.com/windows-home-server-and-pio-mode/)
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 01:03:02 AM by MrRiplEy[H] »
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Offline Padre

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Re: So there I was with a WHS server...
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2013, 01:19:56 AM »
See Rule #6
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 06:18:13 AM by Skuzzy »

Offline Auger

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Re: So there I was with a WHS server...
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2013, 01:54:58 AM »
1.4 ghz Pentium 3 Celeron cpu, 512MB ram.  Mobo limited to 200GB IDE hard drives for boot due to bios limitation, so the storage is on a PCI SATA card, a 1GB drive and a 500GB drive.  Networking is a gigabit Ethernet pci card.
Did you mean a 1 TB drive?
So, I want to upgrade the hardware.  I've read that simply transplanting all the drives to a new case won't work because digital fingerprinting will invalidate the backup database.  Also, the tiny 80GB ide drive I used as a boot drive has 40gb dedicated to the storage volume, so I can't even just try to migrate the 2 data drives without losing a lot of data.  Fortunately MS has a way to manually back up the archive database, using a USB Drive.  So, I got a new 2GB drive and hooked it up through USB.  Oops, it is OLD USB, so the transfer of my 670GB of data is going to take roughly 1 month.  Oh I have a great idea, I'll put the USB drive on a networked computer, share the USB drive, and copy it over the network.  That will only take 1 WEEK.
Did you mean a new 2 TB drive?

If you invalidate the backup database, can't you just make a new backup database?  The data will still be there, just make a new backup.

What network device is connecting the PCs?  Switch, hub, router, whatever?  That may be your bottleneck.  Try connecting a crossover cable between the PCs to rule out a layer 2 issue.  If that's not it, can you copy from the IDE drives to the other PC at a decent rate?  That would indicate some sort of PCI conflict.

Offline katanaso

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Re: So there I was with a WHS server...
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2013, 08:25:52 AM »
The simplest solution, without troubleshooting, unless you're enjoying it:  a cheap external IDE-to-USB connector or enclosure, and copy the data.
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: So there I was with a WHS server...
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2013, 09:12:51 AM »
The simplest solution, without troubleshooting, unless you're enjoying it:  a cheap external IDE-to-USB connector or enclosure, and copy the data.

Actually most likely the cheapest and easyest solution would be to dump WHS and replace it with a linux server.
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Offline katanaso

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Re: So there I was with a WHS server...
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2013, 09:37:18 AM »
Actually most likely the cheapest and easyest solution would be to dump WHS and replace it with a linux server.

Well, yeah, but I was under the impression he wants to setup WHS again.
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Offline icepac

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Re: So there I was with a WHS server...
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2013, 11:02:06 AM »
I had a system in which I had to disable ACPI in the bios in order to stop the OS from piling a bunch of devices onto the same IRQ.

After doing an install with ACPI disabled, I had to remember my windows 95 style installing and removing of hardware to get important devices like video, drive controllers, and network cards to have thier own IRQs.

Some devices share nicely and others do not.

If any of the above mentioned share an IRQ with a device such as USB, the USB polling can cause lots of delay.

I know earlier versions of the OS would allow you to use a command line to install without ACPI but not sure about your version.

Can you get a screenshot of device manager showing IRQ resources?

Bring up device manager and click view......click "resources by connection", and hit the plus sign next to "interrupt request".

Offline eagl

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Re: So there I was with a WHS server...
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2013, 11:36:44 AM »
Actually most likely the cheapest and easyest solution would be to dump WHS and replace it with a linux server.

If I do that, I lose the data from 3 computers that no longer exist.  Their data is backed up only on this WHS server, and the hardware is in the trash.

I did connect my new 2TB drive to the WHS server via a USB to SATA adaptor, and the transfer speeds were underwhelming.  I mentioned in my original post that the transfer rate would result in the database being copied in approximately 1 month, using a USB drive.

I'm going to let the transfer chug along another few days since it's about halfway through now.  After that, I'll try going into the BIOS and trying to disable everything, and then go into windows device manager and disable more stuff in there.  Maybe I can free up some PCI bandwidth and that will help.  I will also try uninstalling and re-installing the NIC drivers...

As for a Linux server being easier...  Really?  I've been using Linux since 1992, and that is simply not a reasonable expectation, to be easier than the original WHS.  This WHS has been simplicity itself.  It even adds new drives to the storage volume automatically (well, you do have to concur with its recommendation but that is a single button push).  Client setup is literally seamless even with windows 7 clients, and instead of relying on compression to keep storage usage down, it de-duplicates at the cluster level.  Right now I have about 1.2 TB of data stored in 670GB of space, because duplicated clusters are not stored twice.  It is amazingly efficient and simple.  Unfortunately, the hardware I'm using is old enough that I have some serious hardware limitations so I need to upgrade the hardware.  I tried the next version of windows home server and couldn't even figure out how to add a second HD to the storage volume, even though the drive was installed when the OS was first installed, so that was a worthless experiment.

I've tried multiple Linux based backup servers before, and none of them are as simple and seamless as the original WHS.

Auger, yes I meant TB not GB both times.  The data won't be there still because the computers used to make about half of the backup database do not exist anymore.  Rather than manually copying off the data which would involve expanding over 1TB of data from a 670GB database (compression and cluster-level de-duplication at work), it is better to copy the entire storage database and after re-installing WHS on the new computer, dumping the storage database back into the data volume.  That's how Microsoft recommends migrating the WHS data, and it makes a lot of sense because it also maintains file version histories over time, so I can get various versions of the files from different points in time, if I maintain the database integrity.  And that means manually copying the entire database (259 files, 670GB in my situation) and dumping it into the new server's data folder after the fresh OS install.

Icepac, I'll try grabbing the IRQ list after the file transfer finishes in a few days.  The drives are in DMA mode, and that was the first thing I checked.  Can't really check the drives attached to the SATA card but they check out ok using the SATA card's management utility.

The computers are both directly connected to a gigabit switch that has 5 computers hanging off of it.  The switch functions normally with all other computers, and I have had the same slow performance using 3 different gigabit switches over the last couple of years.  I've also used different network cables, so I've pretty much troubleshot the network hardware including cables and the gigabit switch.  I have tried jumbo frames both on and off, with no change in performance.

I don't know if the old mobo even does ACPI...  It's about 10 yrs old.
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Offline BoilerDown

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Re: So there I was with a WHS server...
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2013, 12:10:54 PM »
I would narrow down what is actually slow.  The network connection or the hard drive.  Set up a ram disk and test file copies to the hard drives, and to a remote network drive, and discover the speeds you get.  Assuming one of the results is really slow, that should point you in the right direction.

Also, how fragmented are your hard drives?  You didn't mention and it could be the culprit.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 12:14:59 PM by BoilerDown »
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: So there I was with a WHS server...
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2013, 12:25:58 PM »
If I do that, I lose the data from 3 computers that no longer exist.  Their data is backed up only on this WHS server, and the hardware is in the trash.

I did connect my new 2TB drive to the WHS server via a USB to SATA adaptor, and the transfer speeds were underwhelming.  I mentioned in my original post that the transfer rate would result in the database being copied in approximately 1 month, using a USB drive.

I'm going to let the transfer chug along another few days since it's about halfway through now.  After that, I'll try going into the BIOS and trying to disable everything, and then go into windows device manager and disable more stuff in there.  Maybe I can free up some PCI bandwidth and that will help.  I will also try uninstalling and re-installing the NIC drivers...

As for a Linux server being easier...  Really?  I've been using Linux since 1992, and that is simply not a reasonable expectation, to be easier than the original WHS.  This WHS has been simplicity itself.  It even adds new drives to the storage volume automatically (well, you do have to concur with its recommendation but that is a single button push).  Client setup is literally seamless even with windows 7 clients, and instead of relying on compression to keep storage usage down, it de-duplicates at the cluster level.  Right now I have about 1.2 TB of data stored in 670GB of space, because duplicated clusters are not stored twice.  It is amazingly efficient and simple.  Unfortunately, the hardware I'm using is old enough that I have some serious hardware limitations so I need to upgrade the hardware.  I tried the next version of windows home server and couldn't even figure out how to add a second HD to the storage volume, even though the drive was installed when the OS was first installed, so that was a worthless experiment.

I've tried multiple Linux based backup servers before, and none of them are as simple and seamless as the original WHS.

Auger, yes I meant TB not GB both times.  The data won't be there still because the computers used to make about half of the backup database do not exist anymore.  Rather than manually copying off the data which would involve expanding over 1TB of data from a 670GB database (compression and cluster-level de-duplication at work), it is better to copy the entire storage database and after re-installing WHS on the new computer, dumping the storage database back into the data volume.  That's how Microsoft recommends migrating the WHS data, and it makes a lot of sense because it also maintains file version histories over time, so I can get various versions of the files from different points in time, if I maintain the database integrity.  And that means manually copying the entire database (259 files, 670GB in my situation) and dumping it into the new server's data folder after the fresh OS install.

Icepac, I'll try grabbing the IRQ list after the file transfer finishes in a few days.  The drives are in DMA mode, and that was the first thing I checked.  Can't really check the drives attached to the SATA card but they check out ok using the SATA card's management utility.

The computers are both directly connected to a gigabit switch that has 5 computers hanging off of it.  The switch functions normally with all other computers, and I have had the same slow performance using 3 different gigabit switches over the last couple of years.  I've also used different network cables, so I've pretty much troubleshot the network hardware including cables and the gigabit switch.  I have tried jumbo frames both on and off, with no change in performance.

I don't know if the old mobo even does ACPI...  It's about 10 yrs old.


Well yes the setup may be harder but then again now you're stuck with proprietary backups and licensing problems...
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Offline katanaso

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Re: So there I was with a WHS server...
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2013, 01:17:40 PM »
I misread the first post.  I thought you were trying to get the data of an IDE drive over, not the data from the two SATA drives on the PCI card.

Are you trying to copy the 200MB IDE drive and the two SATA drives,or just the SATA drives?  You mentioned a 40MB data partition on the IDE drive.

Easiest thing to test is the network throughput by copying a bunch of large files to the other PC's local drive.  Then repeat and see what you get copying to the USB drive attached to the other PC.  I can tell you that when I attemped a copy around 800GB from a remote server to a USB drive attached to my pc, going over our 100MB Metro-E, it was going to take days.  It was easier to send one of my admins to the other data center and hook up the USB drive to it.

If the network throughput is fine, you can buy a cheap USB card and put it in the machine, or perhaps another SATA card, and keep everything local.

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Offline eagl

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Re: So there I was with a WHS server...
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2013, 09:55:12 PM »
Katanaso,

WHS aggregates all drives designated as data drives into a single spanned volume labeled D:  That makes it impossible to test or access any drive in the data volume independently.  The system partition of the boot drive (40ish gb) is still the c: drive but the other 40gb is part of the spanned volume that makes up the D: drive.


I do have additional info that is making me suspect the SATA card is what is so slow.  I noticed that one of the files being copied over was being copied at a fast 129Mbps (15MBps).  When that file completed, the transfer continued very slowly again.  So I suspect that the one fast file was on the IDE drive, and the rest of the files are on the SATA drives since that's the majority of files and storage space exists.

So, when this big transfer is done, I'm going to dig into the IRQs and resource allocation to try to figure out if there is something that can be done to reduce PCI congestion or otherwise make that SATA card work faster.
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Offline Trell

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Re: So there I was with a WHS server...
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2013, 06:39:25 AM »
Katanaso,

WHS aggregates all drives designated as data drives into a single spanned volume labeled D:  That makes it impossible to test or access any drive in the data volume independently.  The system partition of the boot drive (40ish gb) is still the c: drive but the other 40gb is part of the spanned volume that makes up the D: drive.



I am not sure this is quit true.  what is kinda of cool with  the WHS server is that it does not create a raid. It still uses NTFS for its drives,  Each drive.  it spans them within the software i believe.
The drives were always readable independatly on other machines when i used it.  when i swapped out my 500gb drives to 2tb drives I could still read my data on the 500s on my laptop with a usb to sata box.

granted this was the WHS that was based on windows 2003.  they came out with a WHS on 2008. that may be different.