Rolling scissors snapshot help

[Jed]

Hello all... Looking for pointers and ways to train on how to perfect this. I get the overshoot them end up missing my snapshots 2 or 3 times. And  flying a jug it that's about all the chances you get before the other guy comes around to finish you off.   I'm looking to hit on the first shot.  Do most guys put the con on a Wing and guide him down the site?i will try and catch a trainer but I am looking for some practice type drills ?     Thanks. !

[Vudu15]

Lots of shootin bud lots of shootin, you can try to set em up so you can see em all the way through the gun sight but the odds of the target agreeing to it are slim to none. So youre back to just repetition repetition and more repetition.
As well as SA and flight prediction based on last know vector.

[deadstikmac]

This might sound silly.... But you get results.


So any time I a, in transit too or from an area and there is someone around I fly formation with them, inverted over their canopy.


What you are asking for just simply requires "piper too eye cordination" there are some visual ques that give you an idea of positioning of both aircraft. But outside of that it's a feel. So put your gunsights and mind in the most difficult possible shooting solution and make that your home for shooting practice.


Hope this helps.





 ~<Deadstik

[Brakechk]

Hello all... Looking for pointers and ways to train on how to perfect this. I get the overshoot them end up missing my snapshots 2 or 3 times. And  flying a jug it that's about all the chances you get before the other guy comes around to finish you off.   I'm looking to hit on the first shot.  Do most guys put the con on a Wing and guide him down the site?i will try and catch a trainer but I am looking for some practice type drills ?     Thanks. !

I try to think of making snapshots in a rolling scissors more in terms of flying them through my gunsight rather than trying to put my gunsight on them.  Usually (for me) once I've been through a couple full cycles of a rolling scissors (assuming you aren't losing ground and need to change tactics) I can make a decent prediction of where they are gonna be and when.  I can then adjust well before they would be out in front so that they fly through the sight.  Also every time I try for a shot I'm trying to do so with a neutral stick...so no pulling, pushing or rolling for the shot.  That makes it easier to predict lead and drop (although the shots are typically very close so lead and drop aren't that big a deal). 

Once you do that a few times you will develop a decent idea of how (and if it's possible) to make them fly through your sight on the first or second cycle.  Basically a rolling scissors for me starts with the idea that I'm trying to be stable in my positioning and not flying out in front of them....or fighting for control of the plane.  The shot is secondary....if you aren't being pressured by other cons to make a quick shot and end that particular fight as fast as possible.  If you are being pressured then getting into an extended rolling scissors isn't the best of ideas if it's possible to avoid.  Basically it's what the previous posters suggest....lots of practice and experience.

Anytime you want to have a moving target let me know if you see me on.  I'll be glad to go to the TA and mess with timing and positioning.  I'm not the best pilot but I have a decent handle on the mechanics of a rolling scissors (and I'm a fantastic target lol).

Zaphod

[Mace2004]

The first thing to remember about the rolling scissors is what you're trying to achieve.  The objective in a rolling scissors is the same as a flat scissors.  The technique is different but the objective is the same, decrease your down-range travel to force your opponent out in front giving you a shot from behind his 3-9 line.  Just like a flat scissors, if you are constantly trying to go for snapshots before you have sufficient nose-to-tail separation you are hurting yourself.  Think about it, to shoot him you have to point at him and when you point at him, instead of behind him, you're increasing your down-range travel and losing the down-range separation and turning room you've been working for.  The more separation you have the more turning room you have and the easier the shot will be.

Patience and lift vector placement are key.  If you're able to keep your lift vector behind your opponent and he's steadily moving forward on your canopy you're winning the down-range battle so keep doing what you're doing. If you instead just put your lift vector on him and pull for a snapshot too early you're increasing your downrange travel, sometimes to the point of overshooting him yourself and handing him the fight so wait until you've got a clear advantage, in other words, enough nose-to-tail separation (turning room) that you can easily set up your shot from behind his wingline.  If, on the other hand, you can just barely keep your lift vector on your opponent (he'll be basically stuck right at the top of your canopy) the fight is essentially neutral and, if your opponent is doing a good enough job that your lift vector is in front of him and he's moving back on your canopy you're losing.  

In either a neutral or losing fight you need to start looking for a way to redefine the fight or find a way out.  Many times, the best option is to wait until you're at the top then roll to put your lift vector right on him, pass as close to him as you can to deny him a lead turn, and dive out his extended six using your altitude advantage to maximize your acceleration and separation.  Sometimes, if you choose this option early enough you might get a snapshot on the way out.  If you wait too long (i.e., when you've clearly lost) your opponent will be on your side of the circle, inside your turn radius, and will just lead turn you on the way down.  Still, it's better than just continuing the fight until he's directly on your six.

[Mace2004]

Double post

[morfiend]

Double post

 Almost worth posting twice because that's some real good advice!


   If you are looking "up" at the enemy you want to force him to the bottom of your monitor. This will place you behind the enemy and you can see them in the forward up or even forward view. If the enemy is climbing to the top of the monitor he's getting behind you so you had better change tactics or look for an out.

  Once you get comfortable you this view,you will always know your position relative to the enemy,as Mace so eloquently said if you get your lift vector behind the enemy the shot will come,you don't need to force it and possibly lose position for a fleeting snap shot.


   

[Jed]

Thanks for the great replies..   I have gotten comfortable in performing the rolling scissors. With equal planes I tend to come out on top a majority of the time.  Then my problem is I can't hit the guy as he is out in front. Laughable really if I showed the shots I miss.  And the drones offline don't seem to replicate scissors shots. All in all looking for gunnery improvement techniques

[Agent360]

I think the OP is asking about the "shot"

Mace is right on with the technique. Cant add anything more....BTW Mace is the superman of explaining this stuff...technical but accurate...just think.

It comes down to the "overshoot guns solution". The point at which you do force an overshoot that can be converted to a guns solution. NOT ALL overshoots do this but in this context it can happen on the first and second evolution's AFTER the overshoot and before the tango can escape.

Here is how I do this.

First create the scissor that brings the overshoot....but we must plan AHEAD for the guns....creating the overshoot is EASY...but creating an overshoot that is in GUNS is very different....escape or guns..that is the question.

We want GUNS.....hehehe...right on...guns or die...thats what i say.

This shot will ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS!!!!!! be a blind shot.

So, you must perform the scissors looking back...strait back...not left/right rear.

When you see the overshoot coming u must roll your lift vector to the tango.

There will be no time to switch view...you must take the shot looking back or strait up.....WITHOUT LOOKING AT YOUR GUN SIGHT.

Listen to the engine sounds. You can hear it. If you turn your lift vector away the sound goes down...use your hearing to judge it.

There is a risk of collision doing this...but all that is needed is to ROLL the lift vector onto the target and fire.

This happens very fast..its a guess of sorts.

I always try to do this canopy to canopy...with me inverted and the tango pulling up. I can escape if i miss.

If you try this under your belly pulling up you risk ROPE and another defensive scissor.

The key is picturing the tango in space...in the areas you cant see....he has only a few options....so it things are going correctly you can predict his positon...with practice you can do it all the time...then it becomes a matter of shot timing...you have to learn to shoot at the right time..

engine sounds are very helpful in this case....adjust your sounds as needed...sounds dumb but it does work.

good luck

[bustr]

You are in a Jug.

Rolling scissors will take place between 50 and 200 yards. You ever placed your Jug on auto level, pulled up the offline target and looked at what your impact patterns are relative to 50, 100, 150 , 200? The rings on that target are 10ft wide. 300 IAS on auto level will be sufficient at 1000ft.

1. - At 50 yards, how low from your gunsight center, and what is the separation between your banks of guns in feet?
2. - How many feet relative to the 10ft rings is your gunsight center above those patterns?
3. - Repeat all of this to 200 yards.
4. - How low does pulling the trigger dip your nose during 1 second of firing?
5. - Inside of 200 do you need to favor one bank of 4-50cal over the other if the con will fly in between?

Once you master your ACM you still need to know how to shoot your weapon. Including what happens to the bullet down range. Everyone here is assuming you can shoot things with your Jug.

[Agent360]

You are in a Jug.

Rolling scissors will take place between 50 and 200 yards. You ever placed your Jug on auto level, pulled up the offline target and looked at what your impact patterns are relative to 50, 100, 150 , 200? The rings on that target are 10ft wide. 300 IAS on auto level will be sufficient at 1000ft.

1. - At 50 yards, how low from your gunsight center, and what is the separation between your banks of guns in feet?
2. - How many feet relative to the 10ft rings is your gunsight center above those patterns?
3. - Repeat all of this to 200 yards.
4. - How low does pulling the trigger dip your nose during 1 second of firing?
5. - Inside of 200 do you need to favor one bank of 4-50cal over the other if the con will fly in between?

Once you master your ACM you still need to know how to shoot your weapon. Including what happens to the bullet down range. Everyone here is assuming you can shoot things with your Jug.

bustr, I love you man.

But, man, if this was a cup of coffee you would be telling me how the thickness of the mug, the ambient temp, and the suger cube I dropped in it would effect the coffee temperature after 1 min.

 

[-ammo-]

Jed,

My method of training is fairly simple in theory, and works for me. I put the training target up in front of my AC at 200 to 400 yards.  Then I simply look at the target using my three oblique forward views. 

My theory is I don't want to ever lose vis of the enemy, so I will be firing at him while NOT looking through the sight.  Once I have gained a good idea of where the enemy is in relation to my nose, and know how much lead to pull for a deflection shot, my percentage of hits goes up. 

I know this sounds over simplified, but it has worked for me.  I am a pretty good deflection shooter.  Obviously, other variables such as relative energy has an effect, but since I've already gotten my self into a bad situation trying to avoid an enemy on my six, my focus then is to shake him off and extend, or get a killing snapshot.

[Babalonian]

Gold in them here threads.

Two predominant techniques involved with the scissors, the maneuvering and the shooting - both dependent on the involved a/c and respective pilot's abilities.

First chapter to digest is shooting.  The OP mentioned the jug, that thing has got some serious punch with the guns, but its guns are mounted almost midway on the wings and have a dependency on convergence, and to really get that fire-hose of lead effect from a jugs eight .50s you need to hit your target at convergence distances.  It also helps to understand in near-0 distance snapshots (as can happen in rolling sicssors), the bad guy is passing 30-feet infront of you maybe left-to-right or top-to-bottom infront of your ac, you're sitting in the middle of your ac and infront of its gunsight, and you have half your guns mounted ~10-feet to your left and the other half ~10-feet to your right.  There is a very legitimate potential for your enemy to pass between your left and right guns line of fire traveling top-to-bottom and ni a slim profile to hit, but just as there is the potential for you to rake him with each gun as he passes infront of your guns left-to-right if you can get the shot settup.

I'm a mid-range guy in jugs most of the time, ~325, but I know of players that set their convergences to 500+ (I use ~450 for buff hunting in jugs) or less than 250 (especialy in the D11).

The next is keeping and eye on your con in relation your ac and it's guns and reacting or predicting what he is doing quicker to keep or gain an edge, the better you see him, the faster your reactions can be made.

[Jed]

Lots a good stuff here... I have my convergence set at 300 as per the jug manual that came with it. Will try some of the above mentioned . Thanks again for the replies.

[Owlblink]

bustr, I love you man.

But, man, if this was a cup of coffee you would be telling me how the thickness of the mug, the ambient temp, and the suger cube I dropped in it would effect the coffee temperature after 1 min.

 

All great advice, I just had to digress and compliment Agent360's comment, very funny 
I have a lot of respect for bustr so I hope he doesn't mind me using this for my signature for a while, was just written very cleverly