Anyone tested 190F8 vs the A8 damage model ?

[SmokinLoon]

The lines start blurring between F and G, with regards to their bombloads. Suffice it to say there was an underwing bombrack that could carry a 250kg bomb under each wing. Both the F and the G could mount this bomb. Think of it as similar to the Ju87 swapping the 2x50kg racks for a single 1x250kg rack. This was common amongst almost all Luftwaffe craft that carried 2x50kg wing bombs -- they were relatively ineffective and most eventually upgraded to better loads as aircraft development progressed.

This 250kg wing rack for the 190G was often paired with a centerline drop tank because of the extra fuel needed to lug such a load. 190Gs were often tasked with longer-ranged missions anyways. The 190F is often seen with a centerline 250kg and 2x50kg under each wing.

190F-8 with outboard wing rack capable of 250kg load:
(Image removed from quote.)



P.S. Loon, no 30mm gunpods were used operationally on any single-seat fighter in the Luftwaffe in WW2. The Mk103s were found to be too heavy and draggy and when fired were radically unsafe for the airframe under which their pods were slung. After preliminary testing they were dropped from the Fw190 as far as weapons development goes.

Also, the Me410 should be able to carry 8x50kg internally, as well as another 4x externally, for a total of 12x50kg.

Now THAT would be interesting, IMO. Not overly effective, but interesting nonetheless.

Good info.  Thanks for sharing. The pic of the 190F-8 with the 250kg wing rack is MOAR proof.  Lets hope HTC is watching this thread. 

I was not aware of the 8/50kg + 4/50kg option for the Me410.  I dont think it would be a waste at all, once the actual damage is taken in to consideration (pound of dmg per pound of bomb weight), 10 of the 50kg bombs deliver more punch to a single target than a single 500kg bomb.  Plus, the option of dropping on 4 separate targets (312 lb hardness OBJ) would be nice as well.  Adding even more options to the Me410 would be nice. 

[Tank-Ace]

Yeah, the F8 and the 410 seem pretty lacking for flexibility, compared to what they could do in real life.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if 110's ever carried 250kg bombs on the wings?

[Butcher]

Yeah, the F8 and the 410 seem pretty lacking for flexibility, compared to what they could do in real life.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if 110's ever carried 250kg bombs on the wings?

I've never seen any, mainly its been drop tanks or 4 rockets.

[Tank-Ace]

I wonder why they didn't load up the 110 a lot more. I mean it could probably carry 8 50kg bombs on the wings, with another 8 on the fuselage if you packed them in tight. Could almost use it as a light bomber.

The wings are clearly capable of carrying even 500kg bombs, structurally speaking. A 110 packing that much would almost be perk worth in terms of sheer destructive capability (greater than any single bomber, save the Lancaster and B-29, and greater than even a set of light bombers.

[Butcher]

I wonder why they didn't load up the 110 a lot more. I mean it could probably carry 8 50kg bombs on the wings, with another 8 on the fuselage if you packed them in tight. Could almost use it as a light bomber.

The wings are clearly capable of carrying even 500kg bombs, structurally speaking. A 110 packing that much would almost be perk worth in terms of sheer destructive capability (greater than any single bomber, save the Lancaster and B-29, and greater than even a set of light bombers.

The 110 leads a funny life, it started out as a Destroyer - a long range fighter which turned up great until Battle of Britain (mainly due to flying against obsolete junk). During BoB it was useless as a fighter, and ground attack wise carrying bombs made it a fat target. In Barbarosa did alright bombing airfields and doing limited fighter roles, however it was being phased out completely for the Me-210 - however enough were built it could continue flying, however the Me210 was a total failure, bringing the Me-110G into production.
The Bf-110E was the fighter bomber variant, however it was considered underpowered and if you lumbered 2k in ords it was rather...slow as hell (consider the C model with only 1k in ords).

I think it got brought back to life due to the British bombing at night, and the American Air raids which when unescorted the 110 and 410 did some serious damage (otherwise with escort fighters, neither were useful at all), I say around december 1944 is when it disappeared again (once the P51B showed up).
After that it stayed as a night fighter serving quite well.

But because everything shifted to the Me-210 is what really killed the 110, it probably could of been a decent fighter/bomber since it had some pretty great firepower along with bombs, however the G model was a jack of all trades type 110.

[Tank-Ace]

So basically buerocracy killed what could have been a great attacker. I wonder why they put so much into the 210 and 410 when neither offered significantly better performance nor capabilities. The 110 could have accepted the 410's armament, and carried it better as well. And the DB603's could have been used on the 127, making it reasonably powered.

It seems the 110 could have easily bested the mosquitos record for flexibility, had it not been tossed aside.

[Butcher]

So basically buerocracy killed what could have been a great attacker. I wonder why they put so much into the 210 and 410 when neither offered significantly better performance nor capabilities. The 110 could have accepted the 410's armament, and carried it better as well. And the DB603's could have been used on the 127, making it reasonably powered.

It seems the 110 could have easily bested the mosquitos record for flexibility, had it not been tossed aside.

Well problem was the 110 was a total disaster at the battle of britain, its possible bullshiat killed the plane but in fact the Me-210 was in development and the luftwaffe needed a long range fighter at this point in time vs ground attack planes. Consider the time period, the Luftwaffe did not need those big guns yet, or fighter bombers. It makes more sense that they were trying to get a decent twin engine fighter to make up for the "range" problem every fighter in the world suffered from at that point.

Unfortunately because of BoB, it killed the 110, since the 210 was just finishing its prototype and trials, it seems failed to get it in the air, until they realized the 210 was flat out horrible. So basically they had to rush to drawing board for the Me-110g2

[Tank-Ace]

Probably lucky for the allies, but terrible for AH and general interestingnes.

[Denniss]

Ah, the old BoB-110 myth again. The Bf 110 was rather successful in the fighter role until limited by the big fat man to fly close escort for the bombers = sitting duck like the bombers.
If F/B 110s were caught down low it was hard for them to escape.

[Butcher]

Ah, the old BoB-110 myth again. The Bf 110 was rather successful in the fighter role until limited by the big fat man to fly close escort for the bombers = sitting duck like the bombers.
If F/B 110s were caught down low it was hard for them to escape.

To a degree the 110 was successful, when employed as a ground strafing or free range escort it did wonders, flying ahead or behind before the bombers (109s) showed up - it would of been highly effective. Also using them as ground attack on the radar stations instead of Stukas would of helped.
If the 110s were left High above the Bombers and not tied to close escort they would of been fine using slashing attacks with heavy armaments, while the 109s were close escort, however this didn't last very long and it does account for more then 25% of the victories in BoB.
Its slow acceleration and climb rate is what caused it to be a failure as an escort fighter, it basically neutralized the 110 causing it to have heavy losses.

Not sure how that made it "rather successful" - problem is mismanagement on Gorings part more then anything else. It doesn't make the aircraft a failure, just the tactics used caused the 110 to be crippled, otherwise if it stayed as a hunter it would of been highly successful rather than being a sitting duck.
It wasn't a total failure, however the myth that it was "slaughtered" over Britain is generally the misconception about the 110. On certain tanks it was a failure, however it did excel in hunting.

[SmokinLoon]

   .. someone mentioned that the 110x would have bested the Mossi...   

apple vs orange, really.  They both had different origins and ultimately and both were used differently in practice.  Remember that hindsight is always 20/20 and I think it is obvious that if Germany would have put more RnD in to the 110 series they would not have needed the 210 or 410.  The 110 was obviously a very capable attack platform.   

I know I wouldn't have wanted to be on the receiving end of either the 110 or Mossi.

[Tank-Ace]

  .. someone mentioned that the 110x would have bested the Mossi...   

apple vs orange, really.  They both had different origins and ultimately and both were used differently in practice.  Remember that hindsight is always 20/20 and I think it is obvious that if Germany would have put more RnD in to the 110 series they would not have needed the 210 or 410.  The 110 was obviously a very capable attack platform.   

I know I wouldn't have wanted to be on the receiving end of either the 110 or Mossi.

It could have. The 110G, could be packing around 4k in bombs by simply changing out the type of hard points on the wing. Hell, even that might not be necessary, depending on what type of rack was used to hold the drop tank. If its a universal model, the 110G was fully capable of carrying 2200kg of bombs with no modifications to the structure. Drop in the Mk 103's firing AP rounds, and you've got what might have been the most potent ground attack platform of WWII.

Could it have been a better fighter than the mossie? Probably not without significant redesign. Could it have been more versatile? Probably.

[Charge]

"Could it have been a better fighter than the mossie? Probably not without significant redesign."

That is why 210 and 410 were made and Ar240 was planned, and as a night fighter Ju88G and He219 were preferred over it in NF role. The 110 was an old design and the G model was already severely pushing the limits of the design.

More info: Messerschmitt 110/210/410 Illustrated history, Mankau/Petrick, Schiffer.

I wouldn't make any conclusions about the usability of 410 on the basis on how it is modelled in AH.

-C+

[SmokinLoon]

It could have. The 110G, could be packing around 4k in bombs by simply changing out the type of hard points on the wing. Hell, even that might not be necessary, depending on what type of rack was used to hold the drop tank. If its a universal model, the 110G was fully capable of carrying 2200kg of bombs with no modifications to the structure. Drop in the Mk 103's firing AP rounds, and you've got what might have been the most potent ground attack platform of WWII.

Could it have been a better fighter than the mossie? Probably not without significant redesign. Could it have been more versatile? Probably.

Ah, I see your gauging better/best attack platform on the amount of ordnance a plane can carry?     Regardless, I see your point.  I think the Germans would have been better off not having wasted all the RnD on the 210/410 and simply worked with and advanced the 110x.  The Soviets would have made it a primary target, I'm sure.  Same goes for the Stuka, a lot of resources were wasted in extending the life of that thing when the 190F/G could have benefited instead. 

[Babalonian]

Can you get a friend to help you in a custom arena to perform Perverts jeep and 50cal test?

You, me, sometime after 11pm (gotta love night classes) or Sunday?