Author Topic: Sustained Turn Ratio vs IAS measurements  (Read 2848 times)

Offline earl1937

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2290
Re: Sustained Turn Ratio vs IAS measurements
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2013, 02:47:36 PM »
Artik the turn rate data comes from flight testing. It's very difficult to get it exactly right but you only need to get close to have useful information.
 
Typically for best sustained turn you'll be pulling between 2.5 and 3 Gs at the slowest speed which allows that G load. You can pull harder and go slower but you won't turn as fast. You can see that on the EM diagram. Sustained turn rate peaks at 170 mph for the P-51 and 160 mph for the Yak. Going slower drops the turn rate as does reducing G load.

You won't know if you want 2.5 or 3 Gs or something in between until you fly it and time it. The speed and G combination that gives you the best sustained turn rate in a particular WW2 fighter aircraft will likely be more than 2.5 G and slower than 200 mph. If you see 2.8 G and hear the stall horn you're likely close to your best turn.

It's useful to go faster than your best sustained turn speed so that you have energy for vertical maneuvers.  If the bandit gets too slow from max turns he won't be able to follow you up.
:airplane: I would think that most useful info for a player in Aces High would be this: establish a 60 degree bank, at 200MPH IAS, 250MPH and 300MPH, and see how long in seconds it would be required to make a 180 degree turn! Looks to me like that info would be the most useful in ACM's. Same thing with spilt "S", or an Immelmann turn. Not sure, but how quickly one could turn into an opponent would be of some value in ACM's.
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline Mace2004

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
      • TrackIR 4.0
Re: Sustained Turn Ratio vs IAS measurements
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2013, 03:59:10 PM »
:airplane: I would think that most useful info for a player in Aces High would be this: establish a 60 degree bank, at 200MPH IAS, 250MPH and 300MPH, and see how long in seconds it would be required to make a 180 degree turn! Looks to me like that info would be the most useful in ACM's. Same thing with spilt "S", or an Immelmann turn. Not sure, but how quickly one could turn into an opponent would be of some value in ACM's.
FLS and I both were explaining those numbers that are most useful.  There are actually three turn performance numbers that are most important to a fighter pilot in ACM.  These are sustained and instantaneous turns rates and turn radius all of which can be pulled from the EM diagram.

On the EM diagram I posted (we’ll only talk the P-51 for simplicity), the left hand red line is the lift limit line.  Go to the left of this and you'll stall.  The upper line is your G limit line.  Pull more than this and you'll damage your ride (or, in AH, you'll black out).  The middle red line is the Ps=0 line.  Spelled out that's the “Specific Excess Power equals Zero” line and it divides the chart between excess engine power and insufficient engine power. If you’re anywhere on that line you can keep doing what you’re doing without climbing or descending.  Above the line you have less power available for sustained performance and below the line you have more power available. Your best sustained turns are where this line intersects the lift limit line and your best instantaneous turn occurs at corner velocity where the lift limit line intersects maximum G limit line.  At any point you can follow the radius lines on the chart to determine turn radius for that particular combination of G and speed.

You can see that the P-51D’s best sustained level turn is at 170mph which gives you an 18 degrees per second turn rate at about 2.7G and an 800ft turn radius.  Anything below the Ps=0 line gives you less sustained turn performance but what you would find is you have more power than you need for a sustained level turn.  If you pull to the edge of stall at say, 125mph, that excess power means that you will start out turning at about 10DPS (just draw a vertical line from 125mph to where it intersects the lift limit line) but will gradually accelerate to your best sustained turn at 170 giving you improved sustained turn performance.   This part is particularly interesting in that many people mistakenly believe that the slower you are the tighter you can turn but look at the radius for 125mph, it’s 1000ft while at your best sustained turn speed of 170mph the radius has decreased to 800ft.

Above the Ps=0 line you can see that pulling to the edge of stall (the lift limit line) gives you a greater turn rate and even smaller radius.  This is due to the greater G available as a result of your speed but you don’t have the power to sustain this turn (you’re above the Ps=0 line) and you’ll rapidly decelerate so, since you can’t sustain the turn rate, it's called instantaneous turn rate.  Say that your speed is 225mph.  If you pull hard at that speed you can see that your instantaneous turn rate is 25dps (just follow the 225mph line up to where it intersects the lift limit line again) with a turn radius of about 760 ft.  That higher turn rate is a direct result of having more G available to you, in this case, about 4.5G but since you don't have the power to overcome the induced drag created by pulling all those G's you'll decelerate rapidly along the lift limit line right down to your best sustained turn speed of 170mph.

Your absolute best instantaneous turn performance is where the lift limit line intersects the G limit.  Increasing G increases your turn rate and decreases your radius but only up to the G limit.  You can only pull the maximum amount of G that the airplane can handle otherwise you’ll break your ride (or black out).  That’s why corner is the best turn rate and smallest radius you’ll ever get (that’s for an actual turn, not a maneuver like a vertical rudder reversal).  For the Pony you can see that corner is about 255mph giving you almost 32dps at 6G with about a 750ft radius.  That turn rate is almost twice what you can sustain unless you’re in a descending turn.  If you stay level, you’ll ride the lift limit line right back down to 170mph.   If you’re faster than 255mph aircraft performance is limited by the airframe’s G limit and again, from the chart, you can see that your turn rate is less than at corner and your radius rapidly increases.

So, to go back to your comment, the most important numbers to know you can get from this chart.  Your best sustained turn rate,  corner velocity and turn radius.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 05:29:56 PM by Mace2004 »
Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF

                                                                                          

Offline morfiend

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10466
Re: Sustained Turn Ratio vs IAS measurements
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2013, 04:20:04 PM »
  ^^^^


  Thank you Mace,as always an excellent analyst and explanation.





    :salute

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Re: Sustained Turn Ratio vs IAS measurements
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2013, 07:53:03 PM »
Is there a version of the EM Diagram with a legend to hold nest to the plane specific generated diagrams?

bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline FLS

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11620
      • Trainer's Website
Re: Sustained Turn Ratio vs IAS measurements
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2013, 08:44:43 PM »
:airplane: I would think that most useful info for a player in Aces High would be this: establish a 60 degree bank, at 200MPH IAS, 250MPH and 300MPH, and see how long in seconds it would be required to make a 180 degree turn! Looks to me like that info would be the most useful in ACM's. Same thing with spilt "S", or an Immelmann turn. Not sure, but how quickly one could turn into an opponent would be of some value in ACM's.

Turn rate is a function of speed and radial G. A 60 degree bank level turn is a 2G turn in any aircraft. A 2G turn at 200, 250, or 300 mph gives the same turn rate in any aircraft. The EM diagram shows you that the turn rates are 17, 8.5, and 7 degrees per second.

Offline artik

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1909
      • Blog
Re: Sustained Turn Ratio vs IAS measurements
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2013, 03:52:27 AM »
Does anybody have a references for the real world (not simulator) sustained turn ratio at sea-level altitude?

I just noticed that in IL-2 the maximal sustained turn rate of P-51D-30 almost as high as 3.9G and none of P-51D variant goes below 3.5G maximal sustained turn rate. In AH-2 it passes 3G only by a margin.

I just wanted to see a reference to real world data at sea level.
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline earl1937

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2290
Re: Sustained Turn Ratio vs IAS measurements
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2013, 06:53:28 AM »
Turn rate is a function of speed and radial G. A 60 degree bank level turn is a 2G turn in any aircraft. A 2G turn at 200, 250, or 300 mph gives the same turn rate in any aircraft. The EM diagram shows you that the turn rates are 17, 8.5, and 7 degrees per second.
:airplane: You are correct, but the reference I was making that as a pilot in a fighter in this game, not RL, if an opponent is 1.5 K behind me and I am doing 250IAS, and I know that his speed is probably around 300 to 350 because he is closing, do I have enough time to execute a 180 degree turn and engage without putting myself at a disadvantage or should I dive away to gain speed, or would an Immelmann turn be best to engage the on coming opponent, or maybe a split S.
I realize that the type of aircraft approaching your "6" would have some bearing on what to do, I for one, would like to know what my options are as quickly as possible.
I have trouble now with fighters in this game I love so much, because I have only 10% in my left eye and about 80% vis in my right eye, so that is why I prefer bombers 95% of the time.
I would still be flying my beloved Kingaire 200 today, at age 79, but in 1998, I realized my eyesight was going away in my left eye, and I could not in good faith  put my passengers in danger just to feed my love for flying!
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline MOSQ

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1198
Re: Sustained Turn Ratio vs IAS measurements
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2013, 11:37:39 PM »
As I mentioned in my thread on sustained turns, there's a good primer on BadBoy's EM Diagrams here. http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_011a.html