Author Topic: Correct the Firefly VC's speed  (Read 2428 times)

Offline Butcher

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Re: Correct the Firefly VC's speed
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2013, 08:53:59 PM »
Butcher, no insult intended, but you did post a BBC website link as a reference when we discussed this same issue in the M36 thread.  

With respect to book references, yes the 2001 Hayward book does mention the power plants.  Among other places, there is a summary data table on page 177.  Of the books you quote, I only have immediate access to the Osprey “Sherman Firefly vs Tiger”.  I don’t see that it supports your claim that max road speed was 20mph.  Note that the author quotes Hayward as a source in his bibliography.  

Previously you posted:

I’m sure you know that British Shermans were made in the USA, and all used “American engines”.  The VC was their name for the M4A4 and used the Chrysler multibank engine.  The IC was their name for the M4 and used the Continental radial engine.  I would be interested in any source you have which indicates that the maximum road speed for the VC (M4A4) was 20mph.  A page number would be helpful.  

MH


Usually I never post website information, I usually backup my information by going through manuals, books and memoirs and scanning them so I can present the information. I do not know if a Sherman VC goes 25 mph (off top of my head most of the time I have to go back and read again),also I never drove one. I take what comes from different books and try to piece together what I feel is the best available information. Sometimes If I slack I do post websites, most people who don't realize it takes time going through books as well as having to scan them etc, I don't have that luxury anymore. Usually if I am wrong someone will point it out to me and mistakes do happen. I always joke never GIVE websites because people have a tendency to just post Wikipedia or the first website they come across without actual research and claim. if I do post a website honestly I am just being lazy and yes I should be ignored.

The British VC Firefly should have a top speed of 22.25 mph, I posted a link in another thread on the firefly stating this before with multiple sources. the IC Version from what I gather did 20mph, however we have the Sherman VC.

Here's a photo of my old link (now look at the time and date) this was the last time I asked that the Firefly be updated (Two years ago right?) you can use search and see for yourself.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 08:55:31 PM by Butcher »
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Offline TDeacon

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Re: Correct the Firefly VC's speed
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2013, 09:36:35 PM »
<snip>
The British VC Firefly should have a top speed of 22.25 mph, I posted a link in another thread on the firefly stating this before with multiple sources. the IC Version from what I gather did 20mph, however we have the Sherman VC.
<snip>

Great that we agree on the Firefly VC going 22.25 mph.  Hopefully HTC will fix it.   :)

MH

Offline Butcher

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Re: Correct the Firefly VC's speed
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2013, 09:44:21 PM »
Great that we agree on the Firefly VC going 22.25 mph.  Hopefully HTC will fix it.   :)

MH

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Firefly.jpg

This is what you are looking for, what we have in game is the Sherman IC. Why its designated the Sherman VC I dunno, but our performance and tank is the IC.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 09:49:31 PM by Butcher »
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Offline TDeacon

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Re: Correct the Firefly VC's speed
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2013, 10:36:19 PM »
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Firefly.jpg

This is what you are looking for, what we have in game is the Sherman IC. Why its designated the Sherman VC I dunno, but our performance and tank is the IC.

Yes, that's page 177 of Hayward, which I mentioned above at 07:55:39.  The 3D model appears to be of the Firefly VC, so all they have to do is increase its speed to 22.25 mph.  BTW that page shows that the IC was faster than VC; note the Firefly VC weighed 2 tons more than the Firefly IC, the Firefly VC bhp/ton of 12.8 versus 13.3 for Firefly IC, the "sustained speeds" of 20 mph versus 21 mph, etc.  He could have organized it better, I admit. 

MH

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Correct the Firefly VC's speed
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2013, 10:55:27 PM »
Just so you know, if it's called a VC Firefly that means it is an M4A4 (Sherman V) with the 17 pdr mod (C), thus Sherman VC Firefly. The Sherman I (M4 Composite) with the 17 pdr mod (C) is a Sherman IC Firefly.

The Firefly was in high demand during the war. The fact that there are VC Fireflies without the full mod is not surprising. To go to the astounding conclusion that those tanks are piece-together works by museums is a little outrageous. Most museums do not even have the budget to afford paint, and instead of fixing leaking engines they invest in drain pans instead. For Hayward to say that tanks are facsimiles is weak at best. These tanks are found all over the world and even Chile has Firefly tanks on display. To create a mock-up would be very expensive versus just using the actual tank (even a rust bucket). Here in the U.S. alone we have hundreds!

You don't need to go to Bovington, although I've been there too. Although I'm not ready to bust out writing a book on tanks I can tell you that you could save a ton of dough just by visiting Ft. Lee, Virginia where nearly ever tank that operated during WWII has been fully tested and the data readily available. I'm sure HTC knows exactly where to find that information.
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Correct the Firefly VC's speed
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2013, 11:24:04 PM »
You don't need to go to Bovington, although I've been there too. Although I'm not ready to bust out writing a book on tanks I can tell you that you could save a ton of dough just by visiting Ft. Lee, Virginia where nearly ever tank that operated during WWII has been fully tested and the data readily available. I'm sure HTC knows exactly where to find that information.

I would love to get my hands on actual testing data, I've written enough times to museums and other places to get any such information without any luck. Problem with having books, memoirs or magazines is unless I can cross reference the information its almost useless to me, because I like to have verified proof.
HTC might not know where to get that information, but if we have in fact the IC Firefly, it needs to be listed as the IC firefly.

one of my major problems is all the stuff I have is very dated material, I have spent hours and hours converting many of my stuff to PDF files just in case. Because everything is very old (I have books from the 30s) and I am afraid they might be destroyed.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Correct the Firefly VC's speed
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2013, 11:45:40 PM »
The problem I have with the 22.25 mph figure, which is repeated in so many books, is that a 16% increase in power is supposed to result in a 12% increase in speed. That's unprecedented! I could see it with a 36% increase in power, like if the Ford GAA was used. But to think that 70 extra horsepower could push that much extra weight that much faster given a problematic drive system already? I don't buy it, and I can't accept it unless the Army Armaments states that it is so. I just got the TM 9-759 and I'm reading through it see what their claim is.

Yes, I think we have a model of a VC, and probably the actual performance of the tank in battle. Now that Deacon thinks it is a bug, or suspect data I would suggest a post in the Bugs Forum, though I think Pyro and Hitech read this forum also.

EDIT: Regarding the bold area here; the mechanical efficiency checks out as you might expect. In other words, a top speed of 22.25 mph would not be unusual, unless when the drive modifications were implemented the tank governor was also modified to force a lower speed.

I wish to see the British Field Manual for the VC.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 12:12:08 AM by Chalenge »
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Offline TDeacon

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Re: Correct the Firefly VC's speed
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2013, 11:05:09 AM »
The problem I have with the 22.25 mph figure, which is repeated in so many books, is that a 16% increase in power is supposed to result in a 12% increase in speed. That's unprecedented! I could see it with a 36% increase in power, like if the Ford GAA was used. But to think that 70 extra horsepower could push that much extra weight that much faster given a problematic drive system already? I don't buy it, and I can't accept it unless the Army Armaments states that it is so. I just got the TM 9-759 and I'm reading through it see what their claim is.

Not sure what this is supposed to mean, as the rationale for the requested speed correction doesn’t rest on theoretical calculation, but on (*widely*) published data.  Comparison of the published data I quoted for the Sherman V versus the Sherman Firefly VC seems plausible since the former weighs about 3 tons less and is listed at 25.2 mph, while the latter weights about 3 tons more and is listed at 22.25 mph. 

Yes, I think we have a model of a VC, and probably the actual performance of the tank in battle. Now that Deacon thinks it is a bug, or suspect data I would suggest a post in the Bugs Forum, though I think Pyro and Hitech read this forum also.

Chalenge, stop putting words into my mouth.  I think it was a deliberate design decision, based on what I believe to be incorrect data, which is why I posted my sources.  This is also why I made the comment that using the quoted “sustained speed” doesn’t make sense from a game design decision (all this in the OP). 

EDIT: Regarding the bold area here; the mechanical efficiency checks out as you might expect. In other words, a top speed of 22.25 mph would not be unusual, unless when the drive modifications were implemented the tank governor was also modified to force a lower speed.

What drive modifications??  Please provide evidence, not speculation. 

I wish to see the British Field Manual for the VC. 

And presumably until you get around to finding this hypothetical object, HTC should ignore my evidence and leave the speed at 20 mph?  You are grasping at straws here.  The OP is a reasonable request, based on reasonable available evidence, and is not in any way a game changer.  The Firefly will still be the slowest tank in the game, and the world will not come to an end. 

MH
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 11:33:12 AM by TDeacon »

Offline TDeacon

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Re: Correct the Firefly VC's speed
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2013, 11:15:16 AM »
<snip>
but if we have in fact the IC Firefly, it needs to be listed as the IC firefly.
<snip>

I'd say we have the Firefly VC.  Although the 3D model's suspension element spacing is kind of in between the 2, the overall appearance including the longer rear deck looks like a VC.  In any case, as I mentioned previously, what little evidence we have suggests that the IC was faster, not slower.   Per previous post, note the Firefly VC weighed 2 tons more than the Firefly IC, the Firefly VC bhp/ton of 12.8 versus 13.3 for Firefly IC, the "sustained speeds" of 20 mph versus 21 mph, etc.   

MH
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 11:28:36 AM by TDeacon »

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Correct the Firefly VC's speed
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2013, 05:11:21 PM »
And presumably until you get around to finding this hypothetical object, HTC should ignore my evidence and leave the speed at 20 mph?  You are grasping at straws here.  The OP is a reasonable request, based on reasonable available evidence, and is not in any way a game changer.  The Firefly will still be the slowest tank in the game, and the world will not come to an end.  

Deacon, I don't know what you're going on about. I certainly am not attacking you (I already said that), but trying to get to the bottom of where HTC got their numbers. They don't normally tell us. What I have been doing, and presumably Butcher, is discover the reason HTC has it as they do. I'm afraid you don't understand that the evidence I found suggests you are wrong about the IC, but correct about the VC. The IC has the Continental 975 rotary engine, which has 70 HP less than the VC. Otherwise, it is the same tank with the same mods, except that the VC also had drive train modifications performed upon it to prevent breakdowns.

As to your claim that the performance in AH is "wrong," I have found no reason to support that it is "right." In other words, at this point I agree. Also what you didn't follow is, what I did was take the performance of the IC and the mechanical efficiency reported in the US Army Technical manual for the drive train, and add the 70 additional HP the VC has over the IC, and what results is the 22.25 mph. The drive modification is not speculation. If Hayward did not report that then he doesn't do a very good job of reporting the history of the Firefly. I know about the mechanical problems because they are reported in Fletcher's book "Sherman Firefly," which you can pick up at Amazon for not much coin (I think Kindle is less than $10). You might also look at "M4 Sherman at War," by Michael Green and James D. Brown.

The reason I want to look at the British field manual for the VC Firefly is it will tell you exactly what the tank can do. Also, one thing you are wrong about is on-road versus off-road performance. HTC is correct in allowing the tanks to perform on open ground at the same speeds that the tanks provide on road. That is very clearly stated in the Technical Manual for the tank. I'm sure there are circumstances where off-road speed were less, such as when the ground is loose gravel piles, or loose topsoil, but on level, firm ground there is no reason the tanks would be slowed down.

I'm also not suggesting that HTC should ignore your wish. Only they know the evidence they used in creating the VC, and only they can decide. If they have in their hands the British Field Manual and it reports 20 mph, then you won't see any change made.

EDIT: One of the problems with retrieving information from the Ordnance Museum, at the moment, is the budget cuts. The Aberdeen museum has been relocated to Ft. Lee, but the money for the museum that would be built there has not been approved, and won't be until something happens. That means the Tiger I that only just returned from Germany is an open air display, as are all displays like 'Anzio Annie' and other very unique artifacts of the war. There is a Heritage Center, but no enclosed museum, so where you call or write for archived information is your guess.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 05:47:31 PM by Chalenge »
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Offline TDeacon

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Re: Correct the Firefly VC's speed
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2013, 01:21:55 AM »
 
<snip>
As to your claim that the performance in AH is "wrong," I have found no reason to support that it is "right." In other words, at this point I agree. Also what you didn't follow is, what I did was take the performance of the IC and the mechanical efficiency reported in the US Army Technical manual for the drive train, and add the 70 additional HP the VC has over the IC, and what results is the 22.25 mph.
<snip>


So you (provisionally) agree with the 22.25 mph maximum road speed as well.  

Don’t forget the second point in the OP…

MH
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 02:27:52 AM by TDeacon »

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Correct the Firefly VC's speed
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2013, 02:59:43 AM »
Yes, according to the power curves and mechanical efficiency the tank can do 22.25 mph. The only problem outlined in any of the books was, as I mentioned, corrected. What the outcome was of that can probably only be brought to light with a field manual, and that's why I said what I did.
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Correct the Firefly VC's speed
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2013, 08:14:34 AM »
So the biggest issue is to determine which engine and which hull HTC has modeled?  Is the hull we have going to have a specific engine in it? Or is the the "to be or not to be" question?

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Offline RotBaron

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Re: Correct the Firefly VC's speed
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2013, 08:30:40 AM »
where HTC got their numbers. They don't normally tell us.



Ask politely?
They're casting their bait over there, see?

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Correct the Firefly VC's speed
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2013, 08:58:23 AM »
The only real question is why it is limited to 20mph, which is probably because the tanks had a governor installed. That still has to be determined.

The problem is that the only details we have found state a limited endurance at 22.25 mph, and a problem in the drive train that may, or may not, have forced the tank to be run more slowly. There are a lot of texts on the subject (some of them not well researched by the authors), with the available horsepower listed as between 425 and 470 hp. At 425 hp the tank cannot make 22.25 mph and will be limited to 20 mph.

The other question is whether the other tanks are running at a 'sprint' speed, or not. If they are, then there should be no problem with 22.25 mph for the VC.
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