Scissors

[wpeters]

I am trying to learn how to know if I am loosing a scissors. Seems like I have been losing a lot of them lately. I like to fly the 109. Any suggestions or detailed describtions on how to tell if you are losing and what do I need to do to fix that

[ink]

the slower plane will most often win the scissors....(but not always) some like the 51 Scissor great at high speed...or the F4u with its massive rudder....

and if you get to slow the con can change into the vert and utilize his speed to out climb ya and get above...

I would say first off save all your films 

then go back and watch and see if you can pick out where and when you start to lose in the Scissors...what move would have been better to go to instead of sticking to the scissors...

but Honestly reading what to do is a small part...get with a trainer or a fighting vet who likes to help...there is no better learning then to practice

[Triton28]

The flat scissors is a race to get slow.  You're losing the fight if your opponent can shed speed faster and control his plane better than you.  If you're slower than the other guy and time your reversal right (you should reverse before he does), you're golden.

The rolling scissors is more of an energy management thing.  Because you're incorporating the vertical, pure speed  is less of a factor. You're generating angles as you transition from top to bottom, so the steepness of the moves and throttle control is more important.  It's harder to judge who's winning too.  The guy at the top usually looks like he's winning, but loses the advantage as he rolls to the bottom.  I guess you're still ultimately trying to get slower than the other guy, but since it's a vertical contest too, there is such a thing as too slow.

I'm sure someone else will be along shortly to explain it better.

[Fulcrum]

I hope this helps.    

P.S. All kidding aside, Triton's explanation is a good rundown on what you need to know.

[Triton28]

(Image removed from quote.)

I hope this helps.   

I see Fulcrum has been jogging recently.   

[morfiend]

 The scissor isn't always about who gets slowest the fastest!  The idea is to control your downstream flight,this is done with a series of Ess patterns. You can control your speed with the elevator and you don't always need to chop power to slow.

  The best way to win in a scissor fight is to anticipate the enemies flight path and roll your lift vector in their direction of travel,so if the enemy is crossing left to right,roll your plane right BEFORE the enemy crosses your nose. This will gain you the angles you need to work in behind the enemy.

  All too often when working with a player I see the same thing,they try to work a scissor but just keep cutting back and forth across my gunsight. All an experienced pilot need do is slow alittle and wait till the shots present themselves. You need to cut back either under or above the enemy,many players just weave back and forth and never use any roll. As I said this just presents many shot opportunities.


   It's difficult to put into words and even harder to visualize what I'm trying to explain,a few minutes flying and going over it is worth more than a couple of pages of text.


       YMMV.



   

[ink]

The scissor isn't always about who gets slowest the fastest!  The idea is to control your downstream flight,this is done with a series of Ess patterns. You can control your speed with the elevator and you don't always need to chop power to slow.

  The best way to win in a scissor fight is to anticipate the enemies flight path and roll your lift vector in their direction of travel,so if the enemy is crossing left to right,roll your plane right BEFORE the enemy crosses your nose. This will gain you the angles you need to work in behind the enemy.

  All too often when working with a player I see the same thing,they try to work a scissor but just keep cutting back and forth across my gunsight. All an experienced pilot need do is slow alittle and wait till the shots present themselves. You need to cut back either under or above the enemy,many players just weave back and forth and never use any roll. As I said this just presents many shot opportunities.


   It's difficult to put into words and even harder to visualize what I'm trying to explain,a few minutes flying and going over it is worth more than a couple of pages of text.


       YMMV.



   

 

couldn't agree more.....I am horrible at trying to describe in words what I would do in a certain situation....

 thats 1 thing I love about dog fighting, none are the same.... it really depends on many factors on what would be the best ACM to do....

a few things that are the most important to work on and what will make the difference between winning a dog fight or losing one.

Aim
Timing
judging nme E state
knowing the planes.

understanding the ball.(<------thats my own way of thinking about the merge and angles)

when you engage a con, as soon as you see him visualize a ball between you 2...the ball is his gun solution, that is where you DO NOT want to be, you want to make the ball as small as possible to get a shot as fast as possible, without getting inside the ball.....

[Babalonian]

The scissor isn't always about who gets slowest the fastest!  The idea is to control your downstream flight,this is done with a series of Ess patterns. You can control your speed with the elevator and you don't always need to chop power to slow.

  The best way to win in a scissor fight is to anticipate the enemies flight path and roll your lift vector in their direction of travel,so if the enemy is crossing left to right,roll your plane right BEFORE the enemy crosses your nose. This will gain you the angles you need to work in behind the enemy.

  All too often when working with a player I see the same thing,they try to work a scissor but just keep cutting back and forth across my gunsight. All an experienced pilot need do is slow alittle and wait till the shots present themselves. You need to cut back either under or above the enemy,many players just weave back and forth and never use any roll. As I said this just presents many shot opportunities.


   It's difficult to put into words and even harder to visualize what I'm trying to explain,a few minutes flying and going over it is worth more than a couple of pages of text.


       YMMV.



   

Good description.  Remeber though, getting low and slow is making yourself very vulnerable, if not against the immediate threat, then likely multiple others swooping in on the easy opportunity.

I love flat and rolling scissor fights, but won't commit to throwing away a speed or E advantage until I'm confident I don't need it (which is rare since the next red guy is usually not far).

Interesting how in your OP you describe it like you're watching yourself start loosing your advantage and eventualy the fight.  Compare that post to Morphs post where he's encouraging you to think and plan ahead...

My favorite is a con who blows an unbelievable amount of E trying to force his merge and shot onto me when I've been trying to retain E.  If I can catch their move fast enough and the plane isn't a UFO (accelerate and climb very well from a low E state), just roll up and high, sometimes they try to follow and stall or try to regain the speed they lost and now need, but in either case now I'm zooming down on them.

[Curly]

The goals of the scissor maneuver is to get your lift vector behind the bandits wing line. As noted controlling your forward velocity is key to this, and can be done by both use of the throttle, flaps, and lift vector orientation. So how do we tell if we're losing the battle to control wing line, we look for keys in the position of the other aircraft. For instance, if we notice the craft moving towards our aft during our reversal we are likely losing the scissors battle. Next, we maybe losing the scissors if the enemy is transitioning through it's reversals fast than you. That is, the bandit is the first to roll out of a reversal and roll back into you. These are all pretty good indications that you are losing the scissors battle.

To correct the issue you have two options. 1, Run; get in phase with the bandits via a lead turn and attempt to split S out of the scissor via the bandits blind side. 2, attempt to reduce your forward velocity and get your lift vector at least on the bandit and possibly behind. Typically this would be done by reducing throttle and dropping flaps. Though, if we're early in the scissors and have sufficient E, we could attempt to reduce our forward velocity via a barrel roll and blending some rudder. To put our lift vector in the bandits high 6. Though if the bandit pulls up into us we have now begun a rolling scissors.    

[wpeters]

Thanks a lot

[TequilaChaser]

Good Afternoon wpeters,

here is a link to a previous "Help & Training" Thread regarding "Rolling Scissors Manuever" and if I am not mistaken, it also includes information regarding Flat Scissors Manuever", as well

Rolling Scissors (Training Animation)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,184939.0.html

let me know if I can be of any help

Cheers

TC

[Agent360]

A practical tip -

Learn to fly looking strait back / strait back up.

its a quick switch back and forth as the barrel develops...you gotta get good at looking backwards and flying the helix.

this takes a little practice. If you get disoriented you will totally blow it.

[Zacherof]

A practical tip -

Learn to fly looking strait back / strait back up.

its a quick switch back and forth as the barrel develops...you gotta get good at looking backwards and flying the helix.

this takes a little practice. If you get disoriented you will totally blow it.

When i started flying the 190A's and fighting in scissors i learned the hard way NOT to lose sight.






One other thin i use is if the plane has a blind spot, i try to "roll" into to buy me a second or 2


Also i reccomend going to the MA and sayin you want to DA/learn. SOmeone's always willing to go

[Big Rat]

Morf explained it about as well as you are going to on paper, hard to explain a 3 dimensional fight in writing lol.  One thing I may add to this discussion is the 109 itself.  I'm known as an F4U guy but, I'm also a closet 109 fan.  I initially learned this game flying the 109 series.  The later 109's, the G-14 and K4, are harder to learn the basics of a rolling scissors, becouse the light airframe along with the large amount of engine torque, have you fighting the aircraft as much as trying to stay in the scissors.  It simply throws another factor in the mix, which is very learnable to handle after you learn the basics of the rolling scissors. Would be kinda like taking your first test drive as a teenager with a stick rather then an auto, learn what you need to do then throw the stick into the mix. So my suggetion would be start off learning the rolling scissors with the 109F4.  The F4 is probably the easiest 109 to really fly on the edge, and a very well balanced aircraft.  After you got that down the later models will become eaier to handle as you'll just have to concentrate more on throttle control, but you learned the basics in the F4.

 
BigRat 

[JOACH1M]

just turn tight at all times, pop some flaps, mess with your throttle, learn to switch from tight turning, to using energy in mid fight, shoot, fly away with kills, and keep an eye on enemy and try to estimate who has more speed ( you or him).




thats in no order , but when you learn to do this at all times you will own the scissor fight.



i give no secrets out