Its just Historical Furballs....

[LePaul]

I've flown the Combat Arena a few times this weekend and last week.  Yea, the numbers vary a lot but I find it interesting that both sides have a really restrictive plane set.

But I also find the whining here and in there to be pretty pathetic.  I flew around in Ju88s this afternoon from a far away base since some of the hangars and fuels had been killed on the coast.  Big deal, nature of the war.  So, I managed (after dying several times) to knock in some fuel tanks at 3 bases.  It was a real battle to do so, and wasn't prepared for the whining in Channel 1 over it.

So, if Nash and others have their way, no one is allowed to bomb other sides fuels, or for that matter, anything that prevents airplanes from rolling from that base.  COME ON!  If the JU88 and its massive BB guns get through your interceptors, you deserve to loose that base.

You guys wanted a Historical Arena so bad, but now that you do have it, strat isnt allowed.  Only your petty little furballs.  But, its COMPLETELY ok for your B-26s, which are loaded to the hilt with 50 calibers, to come in, knock in our fuel tanks and fighter hangars.  Everyone agrees the Ju88 is pretty much the oragami-bird of flight in here, so the fact it can survive some Spits, acks AND do some damage is worthy of some commendation.

So y'all do what your best at in here, whine how unfair it is that Ju88s are allowed to bomb and impede where you roll from.  I mean, call me kooky, but is this not an air combat sim?  If you dont stop the buffs, they will clobber you.  Which I gleefully took part in today  

[Furzy]

test

[Furzy]

Ok 3rd Post ever. I followed Lepaul "BD" Around CT Bombing Allied CT bases as a close 109 scort. In each flight I wasnt expecting BD to make it to target but He just did.

 But sorry BD I didnt see that many complaints  about what you did. In Fact I was prolly more worried than Allies. If we hit all their fuel at close base's, Most would shreck off to MA.resulting in Less No's in CT and CT needs that +10 figure to attract more.

[Nash]

For the record in case nobody was there, I didn't rant or anything close to it, I was just asking a few questions. And this isn't an 88 vs 26 thing either. As you said, both sides were able to do it and get in quite easily for that matter.

Anyways, yeah... I understand LePaul, and theoretically you would be correct. Well, you're absolutely correct as that is the way the CT is set up now and you or whoever is within your rights to bomb everything, and yeah, it's up to the people there to stop you. You're right.

I was just concerned because as it stands, not only is there not much point to bombing resources (if only to make the two countries fly increasingly longer distances - I still don't see the point however), but the numbers in the CT are currently not at the level where people can throw up adequate defences against buffs, and well, it's a catch-22.

There were like 14 people on when I got there, and the fuel was all down at the forward fields to 25%. Can you say milk-run? So not only are the numbers so small as to make this kind of defence extremely difficult, it also ensures that the number of people in the CT will *remain* at this level. People *did* log off.

(Taking away the 2 Allied forward fields creates about a 3-4 sector commute to France. If France's forward fields were equally as porked, you're looking at double that. Like it or not, historic or not,  people don't dig flying for four sectors, and especially so when the only reason is that a few fuel cells got plinked.)

But so be it - that's the nature of "historic" strat, as opposed to the title of your post: "historic furballs". Or is it?

Just what is historical about plinking a few fuel cells and forcing folks to fly from deep inland? Currenty, nothing. But maybe what you mean is that it merely creates historic fights, where buffs would have to be defended against and yada yada. So, then what we have is a sort of "historic furball with buffs". Because strat-wise, sorry, the buffs aint doing anything in there even remotely close to historic strat. Used as they are they are not advancing the war, they are causing people to log off.

It's nobody's fault, and I totally wish the buffs had a *real* role to play in there. They currently do not - and plinking fuel cells is not the answer. It is not going to elevate the CT away from "furballs" and into some sorta historical nirvana.

[Buzzbait]

S! Lepaul

Thought yer name was something else, lol.  Was a guy called DD5 or something in an 88 tooling around plastering British bases too.

I was quite concerned about the bases being knocked out.  To the point I chased Furzy and a Ju88, and got myself crippled going after the 88 after I got Furzy to lawndart himself.

I also chased another 88 earlier before getting bounced by a couple of 190's and had to run for it.

I think bases should continue to be able to be crippled and killed.  Perhaps the repair time should be a little faster, but I don't see a big problem right now.

What I would like to see, is what someone else suggested, which is a victory point award to the sides for aircraft killed, bases knocked out or damaged etc.  

That way, one side can claim at the end of a day:  "We Won!"  And they'd have bragging rights for 24 hours.

That way, perhaps you'd have more CAPing, and more big raids.

Allied side had a couple big Tiffie raids in around 6:30pm EST which did a lot of damage to the Hun dromes.

Cumulative Victory points for each side are a nessesity though.

[LePaul]

Hi Buzz, I was the one that sent you to Earth prematurely  :-)

Well, as we are seeing, the Combat Room has a lot of flaws....

(If you want certain planes against certain planes, its a success.)

1.) the map is HUGE and has many errors (A49 is in fact a port and should be P49, etc etc)  Its hard to read, even with a large monitor and 1280 x 1024 resolution.

2.)  Friendly flacks fire at you.  So what, you say?  Well, it sure makes the cons find you faster if you have 20+ black puffy clouds errupting all over you

3.)  The Buff mission is, as we are seeing, a problem.  First, the old base layout is in use, so a Ju88 can dump its bomb load between 2 FHs and level both.  Effectively, all the base woes we had in the past are back.

I do see Nash's point.  Yea, its a hassle to roll out from a base further away, but since we aren't capturing turf, that's all the bombers really have for targets.  The allies can roll from CVs, Axis can not.

So you see, my argument about it being a furball is pretty accurate.  There is no Buff role in this Arena.  At most, we can make your flight to the fight longer.

[SKurj]

You can bomb factories all u want.  I've not seen friendly flak fire at me in a couple of weeks.

SKurj

[funkedup]

So you see, my argument about it being a furball is pretty accurate. There is no Buff role in this Arena.

Huh?  BUFF role is to bomb stuff.  Like in WW2, a single bomber can expect to have no major effect on the theater.  Your reward is a mission well done and a safe landing.  There is plenty of opportunity to play this role in the Combat Theater.

It probably won't be any fun unless you get a formation of bombers together with sufficient fighter escort.  Since we don't have a military hierarchy to cause this to happen, we need to work together.  This requires willingness to work as a team by everyone, and leadership and social skills from a few.  

Arenas like this will sink or swim based on whether the players choose to exhibit these characteristics.  It is doubtful that HTC will force this to happen by implementing the utopian social engineering masterpieces that our many armchair game designers have outlined.  They probably don't have the time, resources, or any reason to believe it will increase their revenues.  We either make it happen or we don't.  Deal with it.

[ 08-27-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

[Toad]

Originally posted by funkedup:
Arenas like this will sink or swim based on whether the players choose to exhibit these characteristics.  It is doubtful that HTC will force this to happen by implementing the utopian social engineering masterpieces that our many armchair game designers have outlined.  They probably don't have the time, resources, or any reason to believe it will increase their revenues.  We either make it happen or we don't.  Deal with it.

[ 08-27-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

Shack.

Well done & well said, Funked.

[AKDejaVu]

Arenas like this will sink or swim based on whether the players choose to exhibit these characteristics. It is doubtful that HTC will force this to happen by implementing the utopian social engineering masterpieces that our many armchair game designers have outlined. They probably don't have the time, resources, or any reason to believe it will increase their revenues. We either make it happen or we don't. Deal with it.

So I take it you're not volunteering for the "Combat Theater Design Team"?

I agree Funkedup.  But I also think that things could be done to promote more historical behavior.  What I'm not a big fan of is scripting that behavior to match scenarios.  

Give us factories to bomb.  Give us an attainable goal.  Give us goals similar to what they had in the war.  Let us work the rest out.

AKDejaVu

[Wotan]

In the ct I think buffs should have a limited impact alone. Formations escorts etc.. is what I would like to see. If a b26/ju88 is flying around porking the fuel at all the forward bases I would log. I've participated in and have escorted ju88 raids in the ct. They have been some of the greatest fun I've found in that arena. However our targets were always London a47 or some other target then frontline bases.
There really is no purpose for buffs in the ct as it currently is but that doesn't mean they are useless. Alot of fun can come out a intercepting and or participating in organized raids.

<OT>

buffs suk

u oughta have to drop ur whole load none of this pick it off laser guided crap.

no offense bd5 your an alright guy (atleast from the very limited times we've flown together).

But you always are on the country channel in the ma complaining about "no fighter cover" "no 6 call" and a host of others. buffs the way they are modelled here rarely need cover and with the f3 view mode if you need a 6 call in a buff something wrong. Heck a lanc can destroy a base by itself which sux. I would wish that ground structures be "hardened" at the very least.

laz is right the impact a single buff has on the game is too great. HTC makes concessions for the dedicated lone buffer. imo i think it would be better to make buff pilots fly formation and escorts or die but thats me.

[funkedup]

DJV if there was some design team I'd love to be on it.  (Actually I think we are all on the design team, everybody who makes a thoughtful post in this forum.)  But given the current capabilities of the software I think what we have now is close to optimal.  

I don't intend to dump on anybody's ideas for improvements though.  By all means, let's try stuff.  Just remember that no matter how many incentives or disincentives or restrictions are put in, it's up to the players to make the arena "historical" or "realistic" by behaving in a "historical" or "realistic" manner.

[ 08-27-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

[LePaul]

Originally posted by Wotan:


u oughta have to drop ur whole load none of this pick it off laser guided crap.

no offense bd5 your an alright guy (atleast from the very limited times we've flown together).

But you always are on the country channel in the ma complaining about "no fighter cover" "no 6 call" and a host of others. buffs the way they are modelled here rarely need cover and with the f3 view mode if you need a 6 call in a buff something wrong. Heck a lanc can destroy a base by itself which sux. I would wish that ground structures be "hardened" at the very least.

laz is right the impact a single buff has on the game is too great. HTC makes concessions for the dedicated lone buffer. imo i think it would be better to make buff pilots fly formation and escorts or die but thats me.

No offense taken, and I'll respond to those charges...

First, in the case of hitting fuel tanks, I was actually asked to do so, and I see the logic behind it.  The east English coast is in quick striking distance of the Axis West coast.  By making you guys fly further to target, its less likely we'll get over run from your closer bases.

2.  As to the "laser guided bombs" and such, go talk to HiTech and Pyro.  The Ju88 only carries 4 that do any damage and I'm just using the tools onboard to get them on target.  I'm sorry to see you are so antibuff.  The Ju88s defenses are very very week and she's a very slow bomber.  What other concessions are you asking for now?

3.  As to my "complaining" in the Main Arena, I call it as I see it.  Very seldom do I ever get Six calls or escort when on a long range Lanc run or Goon run.  My team mates are quick to ask for targets to be bombed and ask for troops.  But seldom do I receive adequate protection to complete that request.  If I rub you wrong, I'm sorry.  There's only so much a 40 word text line can do to describe me    I'd elaborate the weaknesses of the Lanc, and the stats that show how easily they are downed but I do not think you much care.

4.  You last point is laughable.  Yes, this last Sunday I managed to get some loose escort to target, but that was really a first (and thank you Furzy).  But far and wide, especially in the Main, its tough to get the level of cooperation you seem to think is abundant.

Please do not take this wrong, but clearly you and Laz have no use for the buffs in the game.  If we bomb anything, we've robbed you of potential fighter kills and we hear your wrath in here.

[Nash]

I just noticed your sig... BD5pilot. Didn't realise that was you LePaul. So it was you that got his back up in a split second when I mentioned the porked fuel cells on Sunday. I guess I wasn't the 1st one to bring it up, and it had actually become a sore spot for you before I even got there. Anyway, except for the fact that others were also complaining about it, it's irrelevant.

This whole thing is like some twisted logic problem, but I'll take a stab at it.

With regards to the two "objectives" of the use of buffs, we have:

a) Using the buffs to bring about a specific and tangible result, or...

b) Using the buffs as a theater prop to "recreate" the types of battles that existed in the BoB.

Both are totally acceptable, obviously. Now point A, a tangible result would mean hampering the enemy's ability to wage war. But to what end? What does it serve anyone to be able to hamper the ability of a country to wage war when nobody is able to take advantage of it? You can't move in and occupy anything as a result of it. Surely the people in this camp do not mean to suggest that the goal or victory condition means hampering the other side's effort to the extent that people can no longer fly. Or not? Is that the goal? I can see no other.

So to summarize; when you go targeting fuel cells your goal is to cripple the enemy to the point where the enemy can no longer reasonably engage in battle. There's no two ways about it. So, is that what we *really* want? I don't think so. Not in the CT as it stands today.

By taking away the ability to have in impact and being left without a reasonable alternative for the buff's efforts in our current strat system though, the alternative is the theater aspect, the prop, point B.

We want to see buffs in there because it's a sort of recreation of the BoB, it's awesome to see, fun to intercept, etc. In this role, buffs can go along hitting meaningless targets such as factories, cities etc. No tangible result, not affecting anything really, but at least we still have the bomber aspect which is critical to a BoB theater.

I know some of you would be quite happy doing this but, well, you would be in the minority by far. The mere fact that the majority of buff flyers attempt to hit meaningful targets such as fuel bears that out.

So as it stands, the buffs play a role which is either unfufilling to a high majority of flyers, or is unreasonably detrimental to the arena itself.

The answer here cannot be found in modifying "player behaviour". It's is only through a reworking of the strat model itself that can change this. Until such a time as that is done, we really are left with a bit of a strange situation on the CT.

[LePaul]

Originally posted by Nash:
I just noticed your sig... BD5pilot. Didn't realise that was you LePaul. So it was you that got his back up in a split second when I mentioned the porked fuel cells on Sunday. I guess I wasn't the 1st one to bring it up, and it had actually become a sore spot for you before I even got there. Anyway, except for the fact that others were also complaining about it, it's irrelevant.

Wasn't a sore spot at all, in a slow, pokey Ju88, your real friend is the chat buffer to pass the long time.  You asked, I answered.  I didnt know others were doing it so I just told you straigh out I was the one hitting 40,41 and 42, to the merry cheers of the guys I was flying with.  They asked me to hit those targets and I did.  Why they wanted that, I dont know.  To me, it was several challenging sorties flying the slow, under gunned Ju88 without escort for the lionshare of the sorties I flew.  All things considered, I think I did well to survive the poundings I was handed

That said, I truly agree with you Nash on the other points you raised.