this is going to cause grief im sure but...

[streakeagle]

I am not surprised by that assessment of the P-47 vs the Fw190 at all.

FW was one of the worst climbers in the war.

P-47 was one of the best American climbers, 2nd only to the P-38 I think.

Climbing requires two things:

Plenty of power and an efficient (low lift to drag) wing.

Lift to drag is influenced by wingloading, aspect ratio, and geometry. The P-47 has plenty of wing and the near-ideal shape for subsonic speeds (elliptical).

The simple straight wing of the Fw is so overloaded that its superior aspect ratio and engine power are canceled out. The Ta-152 has an awesome aspect ratio.

Glider-like wings have glider-like efficiency, at the cost of high drag at high speeds. When you cancel out the variables in the aerodynamic equations, the real measure of wing efficiency is not wing loading, but span loading (wingspan / weight). For some reason, no textbook I have read has ever explicitly pointed this out, though their own equations imply it.

The P-38 is an awesome performer due to its combination of high power and large wingspan for its weight. It should have excellent climb and sustained turn capabilities, but once again, at the cost of high speed performance.

Lower wing-loaded aircraft (Spitfire and Zero) of course have awesome turn performance. While the lower weight increases the lift to weight ratio, it also increases the drag to weight ratio. As speeds approach the sound barrier, the power to weight falls while transonic effects amplifly drag problems. Hence the low wing-loaded aircraft always suffer a speed penalty when compared to high wing-loaded aircraft for a given power to weight ratio.

The Fw190s wings should have excellent high speed characteristics, though its radial engine gives its fuselage less than ideal drag qualities. Once again, the length to width ratio of the Ta152s fuselage is a big improvement over the Fw190. I would expect the Ta152 to be one of the best planes in the war at any altitude, though the wingspan limits its speed at low altitudes.

Of course my favorite, the P-51 is a very special case. Its unique laminar flow airfoil provides unually good lift to drag charateristics that are advantageous for maneuvering and high speeds. It performs way better than its power to weight and wing-loading would otherwise suggest. I hope HTC used empirical data to rate the P-51, no basic equation I know of accurately predicts the speed and maneuverability of the P-51.

[-ammo-]

Thx fellas, but even a blind squirrel will find a nut every so often

[hazed-]

thnx for the replies. The technical data was what i was after though ...not your old war stories of how you beat this plane or that     ...YA bunch of old wardogs!    

the test between the p47 and the captured 190 were the most interesting. Where can i see the originals please?

you also say the 190 is one of the worst climbers of the war but i suspect you are talking about the later 190a8s with much heavier armement and armour.The tests between the p38F and 190a3 I have says this on climb (RAF/USAAF tests done during the war)

'Climb:
the climb of the p38F is not as good as that of the fw190 up to 15,000ft.Above this height the climb of the p38f improves rapidly until 20,000ft[6,010m] it becomes superior.The best climbing speed for the p38F is about 20 mph less than that for the fw190 and the angle is approximately the same.The initial rate of climb of the fw90 from level flight or a dive is SUPERIOR to that of the P38F at all heights below 20,000ft and above this height the climb of the p38f becomes increasingly better'

so you see it is far from outclassed like you make out.ESPECIALLY at heights we tend to fight at in CT 10-20,000 ft.

you say the P47 was SECOND only to the p38 so how can you claim it would outperform the 190a5?
the 190a3 (1800-hp)(1342-kW)non-MW50
the 190a5 (1566kW)MW50

things just dont add up do they?  

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

[-ammo-]

Hazed, the 190A5 should climb better than the P-47 at low alt, which it does in AH. It should also roll better, which it does in AH. It should have faster level speed at low alt, which it does in AH.

the test that was quoted has been seen on this board before.

All this has nothing to do with why i stayed with you through your manuevering.. You flew very predictable, and your manuevers were not that radical. Although I am no "hot" stick, I have flown against a few FW's and have a decent amount of time in the P-47. I would like to see your copy of the film, and Likewise I ask you to look at mine.

respectful as always,

[Ozark]

Originally posted by -ammo-:
Thx fellas, but even a blind squirrel will find a nut every so often  

Hehe...I can relate to that.  

Hazed, Are you talking about the fight that you and Eagler were in? ( Plus me, the dweeb pilot..Ozark?)

If so...That was the first time I tried the P-47 in about 9 months (I kind'a like the Yak-9u). Well heck, I was missing so many parts from you guys...I'm sure the FM was a ..err..non-standard. I had all 8 guns set at 350 and with the odds I had...I even took the HO shots too!  

If that was the fight your talking about? Just lucky dweeb piloting here....no skill involved.

[Buzzbait]

S! Hazed

I don't have the originals for this test.  All I have is the test excerpted in the book mentioned.

There were a series of tests done with a captured 190A5 at a Florida airbase in '43.  They included a P-47, F4U, F6F and P-51b.  I have the originals of the tests involving all the U.S. aircraft except the P-47.

The important thing about this test, is not the figures for climb or acceleration, but rather the turn data.  That tells us the how the aircraft did in the low/high speed range.

[Buzzbait]

Hey Ammo!

I'm not a experienced A5 pilot, but how did I do?    

[hazed-]

ammo im not saying your flying was unusual or that my flying should definately mean i get away.

This is pure and simply a request for information pertaining to the p47-D11 performance.

Since our fight i have had many others and my question STILL stands.

I have seen a p47 flying level at 5k...dived on it from 8k(level full speed) watched him pull a hard break turn which i couldnt even pull a angles lead on so i assumed this was a break turn, i pull into vertical and watch in disbelief as it barrel rolled and followed me into the vertical.It didnt hit me but by the time i pulled over for my second dive in  the difference in alt was 1-2k!! the p47 was up to speed and had possible shot oppertunities.
This is wrong!.A 190a5 is quoted as phenominal in the zoom from a dive (quoted by the enemy of this aircraft !!) but i can barely outzoom a p47 with 3k less altitude.
if he did break turn he should not have had the energy to gain on me. i did a dive with a slight pull for a shot which i quickly realised wasnt going to come off and converted to a neg g zoom.

please dont take our one fight as my entire arguement.This is what i have seen in MA many times also.

I want proof that the p47-d11 was this capable.

[GRUNHERZ]

THe D11 FM in AH has some bugs, Pyro said they will be fixed in 108.


All I can say about the D11 is that its a spitbolt.

Now maybe Im just the best P47 pilot of all time in AH   , but I have been able to turn with and outurn spitfireIXs and Seafires in the P47D11 on the deck. Im sorry for your poor flying skills if you cant but its possible to do. I have even been able to manuver with nikis.   I think this is wrong for such a heavy plane.

Again maybe you cant do it, but ive been able
to and its very surprising, toejam some of the spifire pilots even accused me of hacking after that.


But no matter Pyro said HTC will look into it.

[Eagler]

1 on 1 is fine for my 109f, mo than one .. tower here I come  

unless it's in MA with pilots I've never heard of b4, then you can usually get one or two of them to spin into the ground  

[-ammo-]

Originally posted by hazed-:
ammo im not saying your flying was unusual or that my flying should definately mean i get away.

This is pure and simply a request for information pertaining to the p47-D11 performance.

Since our fight i have had many others and my question STILL stands.

I have seen a p47 flying level at 5k...dived on it from 8k(level full speed) watched him pull a hard break turn which i couldnt even pull a angles lead on so i assumed this was a break turn, i pull into vertical and watch in disbelief as it barrel rolled and followed me into the vertical.It didnt hit me but by the time i pulled over for my second dive in  the difference in alt was 1-2k!! the p47 was up to speed and had possible shot oppertunities.
This is wrong!.A 190a5 is quoted as phenominal in the zoom from a dive (quoted by the enemy of this aircraft !!) but i can barely outzoom a p47 with 3k less altitude.
if he did break turn he should not have had the energy to gain on me. i did a dive with a slight pull for a shot which i quickly realised wasnt going to come off and converted to a neg g zoom.

please dont take our one fight as my entire arguement.This is what i have seen in MA many times also.

I want proof that the p47-d11 was this capable.

Well, we won't consider our fight, and that is OK by me.

first, the p47 was known for its outstanding zoom. An ac that weighed that much will zoom exceptionally well. I dont believe for one minute that the A5 was ever superior to the P-47 in this department. You go get your own proof on that one I dont have to defend my AC.

Secondly, you say that you see lowere E jugs match your zooms and even get shots off at you. This is not surprising. Its the way you recover from your diving pass. If you go straight into a nose high attitude directly from your pass then you are opening yourself up for a snapshot from the enemy you just missed...and it doesn't have to be a P-47D11 either. As a matter of fact I can name 3 pilots that are/were notably good at a follow up snapshot..NathBDP (in a 190, typhoon, G10), AKNimitz, Frenchy, Drex. There is a proper way to recover from your pass that will make you immune from a snapshot. I will be more than happy to spend some time in the TA with you to demonstrate.

So basically I am saying that I believe its not a FM problem (aside from the 300 lbs that pyro has identified) but rather your flying style. I know you would rather see the p-47 wallowing around, unresponsive, low speed,  and generally an easy target, un-historically of coarse

Now I have had my butt handed to me more than a few times by well flown 190's, btu G10's worry me more. Buzzbait outflew me the other day ina one on one and I had to run...er extend. I just used my superior dive to leave some room between us.

BTW buzz, it was agreat fight, you had me dead to rights. All I could do was leave and call sancho

Great discussion though hazed. I just wholly disagree with you..utterly and completely. And although Grunhernz is entertaining I take what he says about the N1k and the P-47 with a grain of salt no offense.

Now you are asking for proof, well all I can offer is what some notable WW2 Pilots have said about the performance of the Jug. Others like Widewing and Buzzbait have produced some numbers. Now If I was to ask you for some proof that the 190A5 can out class a P-47D11 in several categories, could you provide it?

[hazed-]

ammo i couldnt provide proof of any of the planes in AH!  

all I have is what ive read in books, like you say accounts of pilots.I generally read about british planes and LW ones with the odd account by american pilots.

ammo PLEASE stop offering me training!!   its imbarrisin'  . Yes you undoubtedly would show me a thing or two about the p47 as i dont fly it much but in the same way i think i have more experience in the 190 than you do? I have read and understood Shaws book on aircombat and im pretty sure he explains it better than you or anyone in AH could.I will however take you up on the offer of TA if you feel like testing etc.

the manouver i explained which you then proceeded to tell me was my fault for my egress was a hard brake to the left,the p47 was +90 degrees heading directly to my port as i passed by. Now please explain how much 'E' you think you would lose from this position into a roll then hard right and an almost vertical climb?
Id say almost any aircraft in the world would not follow a 450-500 mph zoom climb after such a manouver.yes they could maybe pop a shot or two off but to follow them up without losing hardly any ground?
you seem to be of the impression that im some kind of green fw190 flyer who doesnt understand the physics involved at all.I do ammo and when i see unusual events i dont jump to conclusions but i do question them  

what i need is for someone like you to post an excerpt of these p47 vs 190 engagements to put my mind at rest.Honestly, if id read an account in one of my many books stateing that the p47 was a fantastic dogfighter or it was a match for the 190 in a dogfight I wouldnt question its performance.I unfortunately havent read such accounts.I have read that the P47 was switched to ground attack because it didnt cut it as a high altitude dogfighter much the same as the typhoon.

p.s. ammo dont get narked at me ok? im not trying to piss p47 lovers off  

[eddiek]

Gabreski described a dogfight with some 190's, and while he was engaged with one 190, 5 more came in....."The 190 turned tightly to the right, as as I turned behind him I saw 5 more 190's joining in our chase.  That was enough to scare the bravest man, and I never claimed to be the bravest man anyway.  I poured the coal to HV-A and made three steep climbing turns with the 190's hot on my trail.  Then another 190 came in on me and made a 60-degree deflection shot that missed.  I kept turning and climbing.  By the time I reached 10,000 feet, the 190's had all dropped away.  Again, the paddle-blade prop had saved my skin."

Gabby and others did not feel the P-47's were inferior in any way to the LW planes they faced.  On the contrary, they felt supremely confident.  Gabby describes climbing into fights against 109's and 190's alike,  and he describes the "fatal" mistake made by many LW pilots in trying to dive away from a Jug.  
I don't know about other Jug pilots, but from my experience, 190's and 109's alike can match the AH Jug in dives.  I have seen them extend in dives from over 20K down to the deck, seen them pull out better than the Jug, and seen them outzoom my Jug when they should have been meat on the table.
The P-47 and P-38 were the USAAF fighters that did the dirty work in driving the LW back into Germany, the P-51 was just the icing on the cake for the Allies.  Not all of the top LW pilots had been killed when the Pony arrived, but quite a few of them had.  The Jug was relgated to ground attack duties because of it's ability to carry a load and to sustain damage, both qualities needed in air to ground work.  The Pony's liquid cooled engine was much more susceptible to ground fire, as it only took one bullet in the radiator to put a Mustang in trouble while the Jug could absorb massive amounts of damage and still get the pilot home.  
The P-47 was second rate by no means.....it's only limitation was it's range.  Had the P-47N been available at the time, it could have done the same escort duty as the Pony did in Europe, and just as well.

[ra]

If you want to compare the AH Jug with the AH 190, do a duel with similar fuel load, like 75%.  This is more like a real world engagement.  In AH if a Jug driver is willing to knife fight he's probably down to about 50% fuel or less, where the Jug can usually handle a 190.  In WWII a Jug with 50% internal fuel was already heading home, not likely to mix it up with a 190.

With 75% the 190 probably has the advantage over the Jug in a knife fight.

ra

[Saintaw]

Dear Squaddie,

I propose we move over to the bishop side for a week in the CT & try all that, flying that mighty Jug ourselves (for *cough* test purposes), we.. of course, would need a second account as not to shoot our countrymen too often.

Best regards,
Your Unterdweeboffizier Saw

------------------------------------------

PS: When I was in a non-LW break time period (hey, everyone has a nervous breakdown excuse-like now & then, right ?). The Allied aircraft I learned to respect & loved to fly most was the P47 (we only had D30 & D25 back then, haven't tried the D11 yet). Trust me, this is not sputnikfire to fly with !

Mhhh, now, I'm off to go make some "tea of sorts" (Gotta recover from having my own butt handed by that 2nd devil Sancho)  

I am more than glad to see something else than Sputnikfires in the CT.

[ 09-01-2001: Message edited by: Saintaw ]