Who has the advantage?

[Latrobe]

Which way the 109 dives is also important. E management is key. More turn, higher G's = more E used. Smaller turn, lower G's = less E used. It looks like the 109 is crossing close to 90 degrees left to right in front of the spit. So diving below the spit and pulling towards his tail would pull a turn close to or less than 90 degrees from his current flight path, and he can pull very few G's doing it. The spit (if he wants to keep on the 109s tail) has to roll his plane (since an immelman is impossible at these speeds) and pull a full 180... possibly even at 7-9 G turn.

109 - shallower turn, less G's = less E used
Spit - tighter turn, higher G's = more E used.

I also think the 109E is a better diver than a Spit 1 (not sure though), so he'll get a bit more E with that advantage as well. Yes, diving does use up alt and if you're put onto the deck then you lose half of your options, but in this situation it looks like the best option for him that I can see. If he continues straight then the spit will turn onto his six. If he tries to roll over and climb then the spit will get him before he can even roll over. If he tries to roll away from the spit as if trying to line up an overshoot shot then he gives the spit his 6. Not sure of the separation between them here, but if they're both near a stall then the spit would have to be wicked close to force an overshoot this way.

Getting into a turn fight with a Spit 1 in your Emil is not un-winnable, but it will be very difficult. This 109 has obviously made a mistake and is in a very very bad spot. Diving for speed and separation, disengaging, and then re-positioning from a better position looks like his best option IMO. Just my thoughts. Might not be the right one, most definitely not the only option available either.

[BaldEagl]

OK so here's more information:

The fight is at relatively low altitude but with enough that both pilots have vertical space with which to work (5-6Kish).

I (BaldEagle) am in the Spit I and Zacherof is in the Emil.  This encounter never reaches a conclusion as both pilots end up flying after different targets but there's enough film right after this picture to draw a conclusion as to who had the advantage.

I hope there's some new guys or others who want to improve their dogfighting skills reading all this as it's been a good discussion.

[Gman]

but there's enough film

We want film!

As I said, I agree with Latrobe, and that diving is really the only option for the 109 like I said before, and it isn't that great of one.  It's not a 1v1 as stated, so the 109 if it does create enough separation, the Spit may find a better target and choose to engage that, which would be about the only thing that would keep that 109 alive vs a competent Spit pilot in this situation. 

[SIK1]

In a dive the spit 1 ultimately has the advantage as it can maintain control far longer than the 109. With the fight being at 5-6k not real sure that Vne would become a factor for either plane.

If it was a 1v1 and I was in the spit 1  I would WEP up and continue flying in the direction I'm already pointed in as the 109 has to try to reacquire my six, and all the maneuvers would bleed his E while I'm building mine. Once I had sufficient E and assuming I still have WEP available I would start a climbing turn. Being under 8k the spit has a significant climb advantage over the Emil with WEP. If I didn't have WEP available it would depend on what the Emil does, but if he flies smart and is working for position while conserving his E I would probably extend and try and reset my position.

If I'm the Emil I roll out slightly nose down but not much trying to maintain as much of my altitude as I can, and using a left hand roll so the torque helps with the roll. If the spit tries to follow me he will burn tons of E because it is a right hand 90* turn for him, and by the time he completes his turn I should have built enough E that I can start a gentle left hand climbing turn where, because he bled his E with the right hand flat turn, he can't follow me up. If the spit flies like I described I would do above I would continue away from him trying to work my way up above 8K where the Emil has the climb advantage.   

With the situation being as BaldEagl describes them I feel that the spit has the advantage, but only slightly as both planes are very well matched against each other and a mistake by either pile-it could bring about his demise.

[BaldEagl]

My take on this based simply on the picture and the facts stated is that the Spit has the advantage.  He can roll right into lag pursuit gaining E along the way, however the 109 has an opportunity to dive straight out opening the door to an egress as long as he does so early enough.  This is also roughly how the post picture fight played out.

I'll be posting films of this and was working to edit the film (3+ hours) last night but time is an issue and there's a subsequent encounter in this same fight that I'd like to address before posting the film.

Stay tuned.  Hopefully I'll get it done this week sometime.

Until then thanks to everyone who responded.

[Gman]

Great, good stuff, I'm interested to see the film.  This thread was a pretty cool idea if you ask me, a still snapshot of a couple of aircraft in a fight, and the OP's question about who is in a more advantageous position.

I've been looking through some of my own films trying to find something similar, I'd love it if some more guys who are very knowledgeable about ACM and can be excellent at relating the information to others would post something similar, or at least weigh in with their opinions about this OP and hopefully other ones just like BE's idea.  Mace jumps immediately to mind, as well as the others who have taken the time to contribute their knowledge and insights.

Again, great idea for a thread, and hurry up with that film, hah.

[gyrene81]

looks to me like they  collide, neither wins and in real life both would have lost.

system: you have collided with...
system: ...has collided with you

after a few seconds of "ace pilot ho'ing noob" in texts...fight over.

[Zacherof]

For the life of me I can't recall which encounter this one. Was it towards the end if the frame over water?

[Tank-Ace]

So hard to tell by that photograph. In the spirit of the OP, I'm going to read the thread after this post.

To me, it looks like the spit could be fairly well into his loop, with the 109 already coming down from the top of his. If this is the case, I'd give the 109 the advantage in the immediate future, simply because the Spit is entering the slowest part of his maneuver. Long term, however, I'd say the spit is in a position of advantage, simply because its a stall fight, and the spit is a bit more maneuverable.

[Zacherof]

So hard to tell by that photograph. In the spirit of the OP, I'm going to read the thread after this post.

To me, it looks like the spit could be fairly well into his loop, with the 109 already coming down from the top of his. If this is the case, I'd give the 109 the advantage in the immediate future, simply because the Spit is entering the slowest part of his maneuver. Long term, however, I'd say the spit is in a position of advantage, simply because its a stall fight, and the spit is a bit more maneuverable.

I too look forward to the film

[BaldEagl]

For the life of me I can't recall which encounter this one. Was it towards the end if the frame over water?

Yes it was low over water near the French coast and near the end of the frame.

[BaldEagl]

Well I was going to post the film but Mediafire won't let me copy the link.  It just keeps locking up my computer.  Anyone know of a better file sharing site?

[BaldEagl]

Nevermind.  I found one.

Here's the other thing I wanted to share.

Quite a long time ago there was a thread on convergence.  To make a long story short I was, after explaining the reasons I like long convergence, mentioning how many of my kills occur as I rake a plane from nose to tail on a planeform crossing shot generally getting a pilot kill.  I was asked to post a film but I don't film in the MA and soon tired of looking through DA and scenario engagements.

Well at long last here's at least a similar shot although this time the enemy gives me a more difficult side profile rather than a planeform shot.  I still start near the nose smoking his engine and end slightly behind the cockpit getting a pilot wound that forces him to bail.

Here's where I'm pretty sure I'm lined up to get the shot (my sight picture):



This is just as I start to fire:



And this is the end result:



I've included both engagements in this very short film.  Although I was wrong in that in the me vs Zacherof shot I was actually the one inverted, as it was presented I still liked the concept of the pic I posted, the question and the discussion.

http://wikisend.com/download/970068/BoB Frame 2_Final Engagement_0354.ahf

No egos here.  It was a furball type of environment where anything can happen but I think you'll find it entertaining and hopefully at least a little educational.

P.S. the link looks screwy but it works.

[Zacherof]

Damn you
That was third time I bailed and in the same spot as the other 2
Luckily ther was a pt boat right there
 

[Bruv119]

I'd say the spitfire regardless of the situation purely because it will eventually out turn the e-mil. 

I can quite merrily stay out of guns and the 109 driver has to do everything in his power to get guns on, bleeding E the whole time, making matters worse for him.   The only things going for the e-mil is stick stirring a negative G overshoot  (gamey) and the 20mm cannon from close in can make a kill with less rounds than the spit.   Also sliding the cockpit view to the left removes the blocking gunsite and restrictive over the nose view. 

I've had alot of fun flying the 109 against squaddies in practice but it just isn't a spitfire.   The stall problem is exaggerated because once enough stick time is spent you know exactly when it is going to go and counter act it.   There are lots of variations of it too and the really severe one,  dropping down vertically with 0 air speed up side down,   can be recovered with enough altitude by cross controlling and then catching once you get enough airspeed to force the nose down.