Author Topic: Making a case for later D models  (Read 3479 times)

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2013, 04:02:28 PM »
I don't know if they were flown into combat, but that isn't what defines a prototype as a prototype.  If it was ordered into series production then it was out of prototype.  The Zero's successor was the A7M and Mitsubishi, reportedly, built all of 7 of them.  It never came close to seeing action, but it wasn't a prototype anymore either as it had been accepted by the IJN and ordered into production.
You'd need to be asking for the Spitfire F.21 to be making an equivalent request.

I was saving the 21 for later

I figure a Spit HF VII with the extended wing tips was next as that's got more combat time than the 152 or any of the D models in question  :)


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Offline 33Vortex

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2013, 04:06:03 PM »
Nice losses, I take it you are playing the Luftwaffe! I am on turn 85 of 700 as allies right now (First time as an Allied player for it). Make sure you crank out those Ta-152s :)

House rules prevent me from researching the 152s before I have D-9s operational. This is my second PBEM game and my opponent is very good, it will get very interesting later on that's for sure.

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Offline Butcher

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2013, 04:12:16 PM »
Butcher,

I was wondering as well why you call the D-13 a prototype...when two known examples (WNr 350168 and 836017) posted above, of field deployed units are documented.  In case you did not know this, and I kind of think you do...when the Wrk order # changes for the same aircraft...it is because that aircraft has gone from testing to deployment.  The mere fact of that alone, coupled with the obvious deployment to Stab JG26...discounts prototype stage. 

Not all D-11's were prototypes either.  Obviously Red 4 of JV44 was kombat deployed...and two more have been found as well.

I am not arguing with your desire for earlier 190's...that's for sure...nor with anything you are saying except the prototype comment.  I am sure you,...like me truly hope more information is found/discovered some day....and likely it will, as more and more great stuff is uncovered seemingly daily.

<S>

Butcher....what would you like to know about the D-series?  I can help you. 


Any information or books would be helpful, I mostly keep PDF files these days - most of my stuff I bought online are so old most I am afraid to even open (I did convert a few hundred books and magazines to PDF just to keep them safe).
Like everyone else, my quest is for knowledge - dunno why I have a knack for wanting to know exact numbers, placements - Oh this unit got so so and flew this" something many books won't even tell you - for example Schiffers Kurt Tank goes into details of the D-13 but only tells about prototypes were built as "production was scheduled to begin December" however its noted that the 30mm MK108 was dropped instead a 15mm MG151 was fitted over the engine in Adelheide, supplmented by two additional mg 151's in the wing roots.

Is there any information On d-13s carrying 15mms ? This is the kinda stuff I am trying to narrow down to find fact or fiction. Why the hell would Dora 9-13's carry a 15mm? Aircraft numbers were V65(350165) and V71 (350167)

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Offline Butcher

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2013, 04:13:24 PM »
House rules prevent me from researching the 152s before I have D-9s operational. This is my second PBEM game and my opponent is very good, it will get very interesting later on that's for sure.

Good luck, I have the same house rule with my opponent - Dora 9 before Ta-152s otherwise it ends up like one of my previous PBEMs where I get flooded by Ta-152s and cannot do anything in may 1944 :)
JG 52

Offline 33Vortex

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2013, 04:17:51 PM »
Is there any information On d-13s carrying 15mms ? This is the kinda stuff I am trying to narrow down to find fact or fiction. Why the hell would Dora 9-13's carry a 15mm? Aircraft numbers were V65(350165) and V71 (350167)

I suspect a typo on that one, the MG151/20 was a 20 mm cannon as we all know. Perhaps there was a mixup with the original MG151 by the author or someone else?

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Offline Hap

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2013, 04:19:21 PM »
Vortex  :aok :aok One of the best posts in the Wishlist forum.

Offline Karnak

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2013, 04:37:53 PM »
I suspect a typo on that one, the MG151/20 was a 20 mm cannon as we all know. Perhaps there was a mixup with the original MG151 by the author or someone else?
There is an MG151/15 15mm cannon as well.  It was not much used, and it was too large to be placed in a space sized for an MG131 13mm gun.
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2013, 04:46:26 PM »
There is an MG151/15 15mm cannon as well.  It was not much used, and it was too large to be placed in a space sized for an MG131 13mm gun.

It does say that MK 108s were in high demand, MG151/15 were used in its place. Perhaps this stage in the war 108s going to everything else (Jets) that they were scrounging for other weapons just to get frames built?
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Offline Stampf

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2013, 04:50:51 PM »
Any information or books would be helpful, I mostly keep PDF files these days - most of my stuff I bought online are so old most I am afraid to even open (I did convert a few hundred books and magazines to PDF just to keep them safe).
Like everyone else, my quest is for knowledge - dunno why I have a knack for wanting to know exact numbers, placements - Oh this unit got so so and flew this" something many books won't even tell you - for example Schiffers Kurt Tank goes into details of the D-13 but only tells about prototypes were built as "production was scheduled to begin December" however its noted that the 30mm MK108 was dropped instead a 15mm MG151 was fitted over the engine in Adelheide, supplmented by two additional mg 151's in the wing roots.

Is there any information On d-13s carrying 15mms ? This is the kinda stuff I am trying to narrow down to find fact or fiction. Why the hell would Dora 9-13's carry a 15mm? Aircraft numbers were V65(350165) and V71 (350167)




 :)  Yeah...you have the sickness...but unfortunately due to the nature of the final months of the war...those exact particulars...will almost certainly never be known.

Books? Jerry Crandall covers the 190 as well as anyone.  A bibliography on Kurt Tank?  Not the right way to find the answers you seek.  While informative sometimes...the deeper information must usually be lifted out of existing archives and cross referenced several times with collaborating records such as inventories, orders, pilot, and gruppen records in order to make a "likely" or most "probable" conclusion.  Certainly nothing was standardized or black and white in the closing months.  The surviving experten and men tasked with testing these aircraft were all friends...desperately trying to get these designs rolling and to the front.  An example would be Bruno Stolle's efforts to get his mates in the Stab of JG11 a few Ta152's before the end.  This type of unofficial deployment was happening more and more frequently as only one thing would keep these men alive to the end, and that was speed.  Under the conditions of the airspace over Germany at the time...only speed would see one through...and so they tried to get these planes operational...anyway possible.  

Remember don't confuse production numbers with the actual existence of the aircraft.  These planes were built...sent to be tested and evaluated at the training facilities.  They were war time flown.  The two D-11's White <58, and White <61 are examples of this type of deployment.  And the final sorties of many of these aircraft are the most elusive to nail down and fascinating because in the closing hours of the war...men were fleeing west...in anything that would fly...as the recovery locations of these aircraft attest too.



Yes a typo I would presume.



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Offline Arlo

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2013, 04:57:44 PM »
Missed again, where did I say they are must haves? Besides, are there any must haves? Was the He111 a must-have to play BoB? Are underpants a must-have to fly AH?

My post was an addendum. Don't take them personally.

Offline Arlo

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2013, 04:58:55 PM »
Yes they are.  They are "what if Focke-Wulf had produced and delivered them in quantities." type what ifs.  Not the Ta183 type of what if.

Where does this sort of thing end?  Seventeen D-13s and two saw limited action?  How many other fighters and bombers would this push onto the table?

Gotha 229?

Damn that George Lucas.

Offline Arlo

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2013, 05:00:14 PM »
I hesitated to even post what I did, knowing this thread would digress.

Can't we just say...Wow...what a beauty.  Admire the aircraft for what it is/was.  I wish more saw action, but considering the chaos in Germany 1945, it wasn't to be.

No need to split hairs over the 'What if' term.  Obviously the plane existed and arguably meets AH standards for inclusion.  No need for Luftphobia from anyone...Turner is posting his hearts desire...this is the forum for that.



Wow ... what a beauty.

Offline Arlo

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2013, 05:02:18 PM »
... only upgraded in performance.

Same thing only better?

Offline 33Vortex

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2013, 05:09:16 PM »
Same thing only better?

Yes, as in more attractive to players. Something fun and exciting though not as expensive as the 262 to get torched in. Admittedly any FW190A model would be a fine addition too. This is just a monster and something attractive as a marketing tool as well, minimal work involved to make it.

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Offline Karnak

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2013, 05:10:42 PM »
Yes, as in more attractive to players. Something fun and exciting though not as expensive as the 262 to get torched in. Admittedly any FW190A model would be a fine addition too. This is just a monster and something attractive as a marketing tool as well, minimal work involved to make it.
Would it be enough better to warrant perking?  The Fw190D-9 isn't close to being perked.
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