The High Yo-Yo Reversal

[GhostCDB]

The loop is what that Japanese ace used (can't think of name) to just destroy wildcats and such by stalling them out for an easy kill.


Everything else is what I call "roping" like I'm pulling you up behind (you thinking you have a shot to get me) but you lose your airspeed a lot faster than I did because you pulled so hard to get behind me (which killed your energy). As I'm above you on verge of complete stall I would cut throttle and roll over and begin to come down as you spin helplessly.

Going vert 

[JOACH1M]

In the K4, I make extensive use of roping and high yo-yo's. Because you can't really maneuver with a lot of planes,

ehh proper throttle and flap management and the k4 will play with the "more agile" planes in the game.


AH takes a long time to figure out. Quite a huge learning curve actually.i remember when I saw the first hammer head ingame....kazaa smacked me down with it. I spent MONTHS trying everything to perfect this hammerhead move but couldn't. Then came along the idea of cross controlling. This is pretty much the only way I can get a near perfect hammer head (in 109s at least) the f4u and ta152 with massive rudder movements it's a lot easier to drop flaps throttle boot right rudder and roll to the right down onto the enemy.

[JOACH1M]

Going vert 

my favorite *rubs hands together*

[FLS]

I will get a new film or find an old film as soon as possible.  In the mean time here is a definition of a Hammerhead Stall that describes what I'm seeing in the first case:

1/4 loop (pull or push) to vertical, as momentum/airspeed decreases, rudder is applied and the aircraft rotates around its yaw axis, the nose falls through the horizon and points towards the ground, a momentary pause is made to draw the vertical down line, and 1/4 loop to level flight. This figure is sometimes called a stall turn which is a misnomer because the aircraft never actually stalls. The manoeuvre is performed when the aeroplane decelerates through 20 - 30kts (more or less, depending on the aeroplane flown) of airspeed. The cartwheel portion of the hammerhead is performed with full rudder and full opposite aileron. Gyroscopic forces from the propeller during the rapid rate of yaw will produce a pitching and rolling moment and a degree of forward stick will be required to keep the aeroplane from coming off-line over the top. The yaw is stopped with opposite rudder while the ailerons and elevator remain in position, then once the yaw is stopped and the aeroplane is pointed down vertically, all controls are returned to neutral together. Although they can be flown left or right in any aeroplane with the proper technique, a hammerhead is best flown to the left with a clockwise rotating prop, and to the right with an anticlockwise rotating prop (as in a Yakovlev type), due to propeller torque/gyroscopic effects.

The hammerhead is an aerobatic move that's rarely seen in Aces High. It's as rare as a tail slide.  Hammerheads are misnamed as stall turns in real flying but conversely in Aces High stall turns are called hammerheads and tail slides.  It's possible to do hammerheads by reducing throttle but it's difficult to maintain proper alignment and it's generally too slow for combat. The F2b does a nice hammerhead and the P-38 can do it with rudder or asymmetrical thrust. If you have film of a hammerhead in a fight I'd enjoy seeing it.

[shoresroad]

The hammerhead is an aerobatic move that's rarely seen in Aces High. It's as rare as a tail slide.  Hammerheads are misnamed as stall turns in real flying but conversely in Aces High stall turns are called hammerheads and tail slides.  It's possible to do hammerheads by reducing throttle but it's difficult to maintain proper alignment and it's generally too slow for combat. The F2b does a nice hammerhead and the P-38 can do it with rudder or asymmetrical thrust. If you have film of a hammerhead in a fight I'd enjoy seeing it.

Will do as some of the good pilots are using it in the MA (I can think of three immediately).  I rode with and fought one of them in the DA several weeks ago who can do them in a Ki-84 without losing control at full throttle and WEP (so far I do lose control and go into a wicked spin in the Ki-84).  It is one of his bread and butter moves, although he has many.  I'm hoping he will see this thread and jump in.  I don't want to name him as he did me a favor in showing me his way after beating me to death with the move.  With that Ki-84 he would climb and gain altitude and then cartwheel that 84 on it's yaw axis and typically drop down from above me and inside whatever I was trying to do.  If I maintained altitude with him he would do something else, but the moment he realized he could use it he would pop up, cartwheel and come down inside me  He called it something else, but when I rode with him as he explained what he was doing I realized it was a hammerhead stall as described in the text I posted above.  Another pilot I rode with just a few days ago took me through the same maneuver in a P-47M and it was not as snappy as the Ki-84, but as he described it, it was straight up, then full rudder with torque and opposite aileron - another hammerhead although he called it a high yo-yo.  And he uses it frequently to great effect, so I just thought it was the "in" thing to do

Just thought I would bring it up for discussion as most noobs live in a horizontal world of flat turns or loops and split-s's and when I get beat by a good pilot it is usually by his ability to gain altitude and quickly reverse getting inside whatever I'm doing.  Probably many ways to do that, but when I saw several using hammerheads to do it I decided to work on them.

[FLS]

A little off topic but you might enjoy this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuTycIGXfno

[shoresroad]

A little off topic but you might enjoy this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuTycIGXfno

Simply amazing!  Who is Ottopylot?  Is this you FLS...if so where do I sign up for training

[Latrobe]

The Hammerhead, or Stall Turn as FLS says it is, in it's simplest terms is just out climbing your opponent. This is usually done by having a superior climbing plane like a 109K4, but you can do it by having an Energy Advantage too. A P-40 doing 400mph will out climb a 109 who is only going 200mph, even though the 109 has a better climb rate. Go into a gently climb, pull few G's, and watch as your opponent just can't climb with you. When you see him start to nose down or stall out then you loop over and dive on him. If you time it right then you can shoot them just as they stall out. Best way to counter this is to simply not climb with them. Level off, gain some speed, go into a shallow climb away from them to try and neutralize some of that altitude advantage they will be getting and wait for them the make the first move. When they come diving down then use their speed against them to force and overshoot.

The other version you explained with the 80 degree climb and then a 180 roll I'm not quite sure what that is yet. I'm not good at picturing these things in my head. If I can't see it then I haven't a clue. I'm a hands on person. I understand it better if I can physically see it and watch how it works.

[FLS]

You don't need training for that shoresroad, just practice snap rolls at different climb angles. Unfortunately the film recorder doesn't show control surface movement but you do see the flaps. Play with throttle and the timing of stick and rudder input. Except the not quite vertical tail slide and the turns it's all variations on stalling one wing.

Lepape2 does it in combat. Check out his videos if you haven't seen them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3HPaXGUDrM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX73JT3o4GM

And yes that was me, my first video with Vegas Movie Studio.

[shoresroad]

Hi Latrobe,

I've fought you and flown with you, and you are one of the best pilots that I've seen in the game.

At this stage I'm trying not to get beat on angles after a cold merge.  Sometimes it takes 2 or 3, or 6 or 8 merges, but a great pilot will eventually get inside me, or on top of me, or both, and I'm trying to work on ways to not let that happen.  When I realize I've been beat on a reversal after a merge I try to extend again and reset (only thing I know to do) rather than fight my way out which never works for me (my bag of tricks ain't that good yet).  By extending to reset I at least get another shot at a new merge under hopefully equal advantage again.  This frustrates many good pilots who want to hurry up and finish me off, but I learn more from having another go and sometimes after seeing their first few merges I can then beat them or replicate what they are dong and turn it into a stalemate.

What you're talking about sounds more like what to do and not to do when you are on someone's six, or if someone is on your six.  At the moment I'm trying to work on keeping them off my six when they come in on my twelve  Maybe its the same topic  I don't like furballs much as they seem like chaotic random killing, so I look more for 1v1's as often as I can as in a furball even if I get the advantage on my primary target I'm often killed by another red guy I don't even see coming in from another angle.  On the Military Channel I seldom see WWII aerial combat footage where a pilot is in danger of being killed by 6 or 8 different boogies all within 3 or 4 seconds of striking range.  The furballs in AH look more like something out of WWI than WWII, so I try to avoid furballs and look for 1v1's on their edges or in route.  That's why I'm focused so much on the merge at the moment.

[Muzzy]

Furballs like the ones that happen in the MA did occur historically. I would say that dueling situations were comparatively rarer. Most of the time the loser never saw it coming. That said, furballing is almost an entirely different skill set. It requires high SA, good judgement, and an eye for opportunity. On the other hand, dueling is very much like a game of chess, with the winner invariably being the one who makes the fewest mistakes. (Said person usually being not me.) I've played this game and others like it for years, and I'm still not very good at dueling. That said, here's a few bits of dueling wisdom that I've picked up:

1. Know what your plane will do, and know what the other guy's plane can do, and plan your strategy accordingly.

2. Energy state trumps almost everything, so learn how to read both your own and your opponent's.

3. Learn how to fly your plane while looking out of every view, especially the rear, rear up, up, and forward up views. By this I don't mean just level flight. You need to know how to execute combat maneuvers while looking in any direction. The best practice I've found is to execute a barrel roll until you've got it in your muscle memory, then do it with your eyes closed, then do it looking out a different view.

4. Study the film, study the film and study the film. There's always one spot where you can see the tide of the battle turning.

5. Spend your energy wisely. Know when it's safe to store up some alt at the cost of getting slow, and know when to burn alt to get fast.

6. When all else fails, break away, grab some alt, and get back into the fight.

7. Always try to add an out-of-plane maneuver whenever possible. Add a vertical element, or change the angle of your turn so it is outside the plane of maneuver of your opponent. If he's in a flat turn, go vertical, if he's in the straight-up vertical, make your moves 10 or 20 degrees off. Try not to turn at the same angle as your opponent.

8. Learn to use your roll rate to change direction in the vertical.

Hope that helps.

-Muzzy

[Latrobe]

I don't like furballs much as they seem like chaotic random killing

Yes, it is chaotic, but it's calculated chaos. Going into a furball there are several different correct "paths" to take (paths being a set series of moves that will take place). Some paths have more survivable options than others, some paths lead to only 1 survivable option. The trick is picking the right options instead of the wrong options, which is rather difficult if you aren't a pilot who can read 10 moves ahead. I know I can't! I very much just make things up as I go. 

[Randy1]

Randy, it's actually pretty easy.  At the top of the climb, cut one engine, rudder over towards the cut engine, and turn in that direction.  You'll be able to seemingly pivot the 38 on its tail.

Katanaso, I will give that a go.  I had wondered for awhile what the P38 flop was.  I had guessed it was a tail slide flop but could never get that to work.