Update to the offline lead comp gun sight

[bustr]

If this is acceptable it probably should be an either or switch.

1. - The default green cross only LCG.
2. - This modification as the LCG active lead reticle aid.

From my research to create the Historic packs I've also researched how the pilots were trained to use the optical reflector gun sights we use in this game. The British manual "Bag the Hun" is the closest concept to how the allies looked at air to air gunnery visa the reticles project in the guns sights.

One standard for fighter to fighter combat is the main ring was a 100Mil diameter minimum, 101 to 105 by 1944. To which "Bag the Hun" tried to address the idea of 5, 10, 15, 20 and 30 degree ring hold offs to your direction of travel. 30 degrees would be a 150Mil diameter ring just getting into the E force of a turn that your rounds begin hitting below your nose. From research on the K14, it's maximum lead limits were short of 30 degrees at which point the gyroscopes could not overcome the G force of the turn. Damage could result to the device.

The point to this is to give newbies a more visual oriented way to build a sight picture while learning gunnery faster than in the past 13 years to help them get kills sooner in the game and want to stay with us. The green cross only gives no reason for the ring in any gun sight while not projecting some kind of standardized visual reference feedback.

Untill the K14, air to air combat fighters used a minimum 100Mil fixed ring to aid in lead estimate at the high speeds of the time. This is why the NAVY adopted the Mk8 in 1941 with its 100Mil main ring.

The Bag the Hun concept of lead degrees. In WW2 very few lead shots were taken at the high E loads we furball in the game. The 30 degree below is a relative travel straight line to your line of travel. The Low E constraint of the K14.



A standard concept for lead is divisions of the Main Ring. When holding over for E lead, the very first division unit, is from the center of your projected gun sight reticle or the dot and how many division of your main ring the con is lead by.

I'm requesting a 100Mil ring be added to the LCG cross as an option that expands and shrinks relative to the computations that generate the cross for you to line up with the center of your gun sight and hit drones. Over the last 10 or so years I've played this game. No one has a standard definition of lead that everyone can point to talk with a common vocabulary concerning the topic. Adding the ring with expanding ring divisions to the green cross will create a common baseline and historically accurate measurement jargon for everyone to speak about their gunnery issues from.

Minimum diameter expanding to maximum diameter before the second 100Mil ring is generated.

[bustr]

The expanding ring as lead at range or E load dictates. The limitation to this should be the 100Mil ring and any division changes should only happen while the center of the gun sight is your primary view.

The next pictures illustrate the 100Mil ring by itself being the lead hold over until it's inside edge touches the center of the projected reticle. At which point a second ring generates and slides towards the con. I couldn't find a lead shooting scenario the I need more than two full rings edge to edge while the inside rings edge touched the center of the projected reticle.

Screen shots of the 100Mil ring expansion.

[bustr]

Sorry on that last picture I removed the MK108 30mm green cross and left in the 13mm green cross. Here is the screen capture focusing on the 30mm green cross.

[FLS]

Unless I'm missing a point, a player with the knowledge to use the green ring wouldn't need it.  I agree that Bag the Hun is a useful manual but a newbie that studies is a rare bird.

The issue I see is that you have to recognize the angle off tail of the bandit to use the ring properly.

[gyrene81]

and a newbie with a manual like that is ever rarer...    come to think of it, even old players with a manual like that are rare.

[715]

Forget newbie... I've been here since beta and I didn't understand a single word or picture of this thread.  Perhaps that's why I can't hit a thing.

Perhaps you could do a bunch of us a favor and explain the ring thingie more completely.

[bustr]

The "ring thingy" gives you a scale to remember as a general start point for a lead shot (snap shots). You will remember the number of rings or simply the general distance all the green rings defined visually better than just the tiny green cross. Especially related to your favorite gun sight. The LCG green cross is not perfect, as much as it is a guide to show you how much lead and elevation is needed at any given moment. You still need to practice but, you have a better idea of your starting point to aim lead. 

Most players shoot too late when the try to lead someone at 400 crossing their front at 90 degrees. The rings take the general over used response by the resident gunnery experts in this forum. "You are probably shooting too late" or "You are probably leading to short". And gives you a place to go offline and look at a visual representation. Or one of them can show you a "Screen Shot". Instead of confusing you with words like I'm accused of.

If you need, Hitech can fade out all of the 2nd generated green circle except that part that sticks out past the first green circle. As it grows to the point of two full rings it will become ring edge to ring edge. I doubt any division of a 3rd ring will be needed. I've read so many sources in the last few years explaining how rings of lead were used for lead that I showed it literally in my examples. Sorry about that. At least I'm not trying to use the German method of 6ths of a 100Mil ring.

Be glad I'm not talking in Rads. Bomber gunners had to learn this in units of Rads. 1 Rad = 35Mil, 2 - 70Mil, 3 - 105Mil. A 100Mil ring is just about 3Rad. But, for lead purposes they were talking about half of the ring as your lead from the center dot if they said a 2Rad lead or 35Mil. Or the British said 100mph ring for a 100Mil and 70mph ring for a 70Mil. Confusing ain't it.....

The below example probably has more meaning because you will remember at (-400) the con is just clearing the canopy as defined by the 1 1\2 rings lead to the left. Lots of lead is needed for the tater in this picture. About 147ft. A .50cal or 20mm would be near one ring about 98ft at that distance.

One and a Half Rings Lead Shot. MK108 30mm in K4 set to 400 convergence.

 

[guncrasher]

damn bustr after 3 years of you explaining the aming thingy, I finally got it.  the gunsight you have created is pretty accurate but it would be even more deadly using the circles as you suggest.

however I have one question,  it works when you are fighting one airplane but what about a furball wont the screen get full of circles? or the option would be to make it for the closest target.



semp

[715]

See I never understood the ring gunsight because I just assumed the target should be somewhere on the ring.  In fact you usually have to shoot way outside the ring.  Take the 37 mm flak gun.  What is the point of that ring sight when you have to lead the target virtually the whole screen (at a given zoom factor), not the tiny ring.

[bustr]

Semp,

This is only offline to teach you what the actual amount of lead looks like using a 100Mil ring as the yard stick. It's to allow you to work with one drone at a time to see it. Just load a dot gunsight and enable the thing if you don't get the idea of rings. If Hitech introduces it.

Didn't you ever want to know what the full amount of lead really looked like, left to right, shooting the MK108 in the K4 at 600 yards?

715,

Un zoomed in the wirbel leading left to right 800-1000 place the edge of the gunsight box on the cons drone. The maximum range for wirbel 20mm is ony 1700 yards. That is the range just before they stop marking the offline target.

This is not something I'm asking for in the MA. Just an option to toggle on\off for the offline lead computing gunsight while you chase drones to help understand lead. Why is this suddenly throwing everyone for a curve. The green cross by itself is fine but, without the rings, is very hard to understand the distance between the center of your gunsight and how far to hold over from the drone. The ring or rings will touch the drone during your shooting solution showing the distance.

In WW2, fighter pilots used numbers of rings and divisions of to describe how much to lead by.
-----------------------------------

An addendum to when it is first enabled.

It probably should be a 100Mil ring and cross fixed gunsight overlaying whatever is there. Then when a drone is highlighted it either stays put due to the drone being out side of the primary view or begins shrinking or expanding while moving and edge to touch the drone showing lead.

[FLS]

Bustr you're still apparently ignoring the fact that the angle off tail changes the required lead even though that's illustrated by the pic you posted from Bag the Hun. Seeing the AOT and remembering the required lead is the harder part of gunnery. Adding circles to the crosses won't help with that.

[bustr]

Ok, so they were wrong how they taught this in WW2. I didn't know we threw all that into the garbage with this game. Even if the game physics looks to be faithfully based on it.

But, then the K14 could only be used for low E turns, while the con was kept in the view arc out to 800yds limited by the glass reflector plate's edges and corners .

In reality the rings work. I've built gun sights with them statically over set to test Lead like you see in all of these pictures. The perspective remains constant just like a low E 20 degree to line of travel at 300 lines up like at 600. "Similar Triangles." Mostly the elevation for the rounds change to account for the range difference if the relative vectors remain the same during the bullet travel time. Low E 20 degree to your line of travel.

Practice will always be needed to become proficient. Especially with a defined ruler of scale and perspective. 100Mil ring at all distances.

It gives the uninitiated new player something more tangible than a small green cross and mapping the screen capture to their trigger if they ever in all their game career figure that out, or anyone bothers to tell them . Which is how I took the screen captures for this Wish.

Here "Bag the Hun" issued to all British fighter pilots and interested AAF pilots to learn Lead using the MKII\Mk8. When you start the download, kill the two popup windows. You don't want what they is selling.

"Bag the Hun" Download: http://www63.zippyshare.com/v/87394583/file.html


The allies taught lead past 20 degrees in rings of hold off starting at the center dot of the reticle. The edge of the 100Mil ring was a half ring hold off or 50Mil. If the Low E angle was at 20 degrees or inside of 20 degrees your hold off was AAF\NAVY Mils or division of the ring. British taught 5, 10, 15, 20 degress to the line of travel as in "Bag the Hun".

The Germans and to a degree the VVS used fractions of the ring based on those tick marks that divide the Revi 100Mil ring in 6ths. Ever wonder why there was three 6ths more defined by 3 additional tick marks past the edge of the ring in the cardinal directions? The maximum lead before E caused you to shoot behind the con and for longer range hold off Lead. 

That's why when the NAVY hastily procured N-2 gunsights right after Pearl Harbor, which had only a vertical line with 3 horizontal lines as a simple ranging reticle. They upgraded their own modified reticle of a 35Mil ring and dot or 1 Rad into them to give Wildcat pilots some ability to judge lead. The ability to judge lead against highly maneuverable Japanese fighters was the reason for the blanket adoption of the Mk8 with it's 100Mil and 50Mil rings. To judge lead shooting visa angle of travel relative to line of travel ring divisions and by rings hold off for snap shots.

Here is the comparison K14 gyroscopic precession hold off vectors versus adopting a 100Mil active ring option into the offline LCG to measure lead by rings as the NAVY, AAF, and British taught.

If you compare my previous picture's gunsights to the 6-star vector hold offs visa gyroscopic precession. You will notice my lines follow those vectors since we don't really have an active K14 gunsight in the game.

P51D 400- Low E 20 degree, K14 6-star and LCG ring\6-star.





P51D 400- reaching limit of Low E past 20 degree, 6-star and LCG ring\6-star.





A20 800- Low E turn high angle dive, K14 6-star, LCG ring\6-star. Two ring lead possibilities.

[FLS]

You missed my point completely. Your post is about the gunsights with rings. So is my comment.
You haven't addressed the need to recognize the aspect angle of the target aircraft. Do you think the newbie already has that skill?

[bustr]

You are niggling a split hair, while having a very low opinion of new people to the game. And their ability to see what is happening in front of them once someone tells them how to turn the tool on. And the green cross is more of an accomplished veteran's tool to verify he understands lead using a specific type of gun in his ride.

Using the rings shows the aspect changes very little and show cases better the relationship between increased lead due to higher E states. Essentially what is and what is not possible. Depending on the relative E state shooting low E at -400 moves the drone just inside of the 100Mil ring edge, on it, or just outside. You cannot ask for much more. At least the new player with some practice will upon being in that same relationship in the game know to pull about 50Mil of lead or a half ring. After that, well I hear tracers in this game give you just a bit of adjustment time, even if you only get an assist or a kill as you land. But, then that's a higher overall hit% then blundering around and missing without any way to visual see what lead means, other than listening to 20-30 people tell you their personal translations of the concept.

The green cross by itself is just a green cross that try's to show you where to orient the center of your glass reflector plate to then maybe hit something. The LCG like the K14 is not a perfect point and click gunnery solution. The 100Mil rings give the newbie a yard stick opposed to making up a different rule of thumb for gauging off a menagerie of cockpit internals. How many fighters do we have now?

So you telling me they didn't know what they were doing in WW2 when they taught all of this? It wasn't point and click then either. But, their training gave the new pilot a similar mental rule of thumb to start lead 50Mil from the center dot of the reticle touching the con with the main ring edge at about 333yds in a 20 degree low E turn and missing less from there. Otherwise, how did the K14 always place the 6-star just about the same spot at that range under that condition? The gyroscopes which responded to E had to be tuned to do that visa empirical input that happened to constantly repeat itself in response to known physics. Like how Hitech programed this game.

[guncrasher]

You missed my point completely. Your post is about the gunsights with rings. So is my comment.
You haven't addressed the need to recognize the aspect angle of the target aircraft. Do you think the newbie already has that skill?

dude there's a lot of thing that a new guy guy doesnt know.  like the need to slow down or when to pull flaps, but he's gotta start somewhere.





semp