Author Topic: How Radial Engines work  (Read 6615 times)

Offline pembquist

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Re: How Radial Engines work
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2013, 12:09:31 PM »
The one connected to the master rod. Earl I have a vague memory that the master rod was a late night stroke of genius on the part of an engineer at p&w or wright but I can't remember, any info?
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Offline nrshida

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Re: How Radial Engines work
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2013, 12:15:21 PM »
If sleeve valves were better, i think that they'd be used predominantly.

Define better. That can often just mean cheaper. The only thing that really replaced the Bristol series of aero engines was gas turbines. Compared to 'standard' radials they had a higher BMEP, lower fuel consumption at higher power settings and a service life three times longer.

Sure they had their drawbacks, so do poppet valve engines. There was possibly a point where it could have gone either way but the poppet valve won out.


Please post. I'd never seen sleeve valves like the ones in that animation until now.


I wrote a sort article in the Bristol Beafighter thread.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,255408.msg4388164.html#msg4388164



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Offline nrshida

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Re: How Radial Engines work
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2013, 12:16:56 PM »
Here is a clearer video of a cutaway engine running in demo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Liqqo8Cdb68
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Offline earl1937

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Re: How Radial Engines work
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2013, 12:41:12 PM »
The one connected to the master rod. Earl I have a vague memory that the master rod was a late night stroke of genius on the part of an engineer at p&w or wright but I can't remember, any info?
:airplane: You real close and I am not sure which engine producer, Wright or P&W were the ones to finally produce a smooth running, very reliable  radial engine first.
If you will look at the front view, showing the cylinder's and pistons moving up and down, the cylinder at 12 O'clock position is the master rod and all the others are slaves. If the cylinders and rods were arranged like a 6 or 8 cylinder auto engine, with a "crankcase" "throw" for each cylinder, the thing would be huge! But when Wright or Kinner or P&W finally came up with the Master cylinder arrangement, a lot of size problems went out the window. Then to make a more powerful engine, they just added another "bank" of cylinders, again one with a master rod and you had the makings of a lot of the more powerful, yet small size engines, suitable for aircraft applications. They, the engine manufacturers, all settled on the 7 cylinder bank as the most desireable. The P&W R-4360 was the largest of the radial engines ever mass produced. They were used in the B-36, C-97's, KC-97", B-50's, C-119's and one model of the F4U aircraft. I am sure I have missed some that had that big old engine, but don't come to mind right now.
This is a pic of the R-4360

 This is a pic of the old Ranger inverted engine, which had a crankcase throw for each cylinder.

  This is a "see through" of a R-2600, twin row, (2 banks of 7 cylinder's each), and the difference in this and the R-2800 in the F4U's and many other fighter aircraft produced by Grumman, the cylinder's were a little larger, hence the difference in 2600 cubic inches cylinder displacement and 2800 cubic inches of cylinder displacement. Now, there were certainly a lot of other differences in the two engines, but the basic crankcase, nose section, and accessory sections were very similar in their layout.
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Offline earl1937

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Re: How Radial Engines work
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2013, 12:45:49 PM »
Here is a clearer video of a cutaway engine running in demo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Liqqo8Cdb68
:airplane: Not sure what kind of cylinder that is shown in this video, but it is not a aircraft engine which I am familiar with, as it has a moving sleeve inside the cylinder!
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Offline nrshida

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Re: How Radial Engines work
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2013, 01:02:33 PM »
:airplane: Not sure what kind of cylinder that is shown in this video, but it is not a aircraft engine which I am familiar with, as it has a moving sleeve inside the cylinder!

It's a Bristol Hercules. The Beaufighter used these ones (also).

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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: How Radial Engines work
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2013, 02:58:33 PM »
:airplane: Not sure what kind of cylinder that is shown in this video, but it is not a aircraft engine which I am familiar with, as it has a moving sleeve inside the cylinder!

The title says Le moteur Bristol Hercules

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vrvep_YOio

From Wiki, a/c that used the Hurc

Armstrong Whitworth Albemarle, Avro Lancaster B.II, Avro York C.II, Bristol Beaufighter, Bristol Freighter, Bristol Superfreighter, Breguet 890 Mercure, Fokker T.IX, Folland Fo.108, Handley Page Halifax, Handley Page Hastings, Handley Page Hermes, Nord Noratlas, Northrop 8A (One Swedish 8A-1 was bought by Bristol to test the engine), Northrop Gamma 2L, Saro Lerwick, Short S.26, Short Seaford, Short Solent, Short Stirling, Vickers Valetta, Vickers Varsity, Vickers VC.1 Viking, Vickers Wellesley, Vickers Wellington

sleeve valve engines , Crecy (2 stroke v12) and Sabre (4 stroke h24)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgiPv5uPX-M

Offline Charge

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Re: How Radial Engines work
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2013, 02:04:28 AM »
Being interested in different valve designs I find the sleeve valve an interesting exception since the engine business tends to stick with cheapest and on the other hand technologies which offer best performance and the poppet valve is in many ways an optimal design -yet not necessarily the most optimal performance wise.

When the four stroke engine was young the valve technology was give some serious thought:

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/RotaryValveIC/RotaryValveIC.htm#crs

More recent application:

http://home.people.net.au/~mrbdesign/PDF/AutoTechBRV.pdf

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Offline Brooke

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Re: How Radial Engines work
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2013, 01:01:27 PM »
Define better.

More specifically what I mean is that if sleeve valves were any of these on average -- cheaper without regard to performance, higher performance without regard to cost, or lower in cost/performance -- they would be used a lot.  Lots of piston automobile engines, boat engines, aircraft engines, lawnmower engines, generator engines, pump engines, and motorcycle engines are made under any of those metrics.  Take just a couple of these categories -- cars and motorcycles.  There are many examples of those made to be as cheap as possible, ones made as high performance as possible without regard to cost, and ones made with cost/performance in mind, and none or nearly none of them have sleeve valves, and that includes the whole range of engine sizes from radio-controlled airplanes to lawn mowers to motorcycles to cars to construction/excavation equipment to ships to enormous ships.

It also is not a result of design inertia, I can tell you from having worked for several years at Chevy Engineering (the portion of Chevy that was responsible for, among other things, engine design for commercial vehicles, speculative future designs, and for some racing applications such as, depending on the time period, Indy, Grand Prix, and Nascar).  There was not huge design inertia -- if it provably worked better for engines, it could get adopted.  That's how historically things went from push rods to overhead cam, from 2 valves per cylinder to four, from carburetors to fuel injection, from steel to aluminum, etc.  All sorts of engines have been tried out historically in just cars alone -- two stroke, diesel, otto, turbines, electric, hybrid, steam, sterling, inertial energy storage, 8 cylinder, 4 cylinder, V, opposed, Wankel, air cooling, liquid cooling, superchargers, turbochargers, etc., using steel, aluminum, ceramics, plastics, and various other alloys.  What we have today is the result of a huge amount of experimentation and optimization.

If sleeve valves were on average better in some way (take your pick of any way at all), I think they'd be used a lot more.  If they were better somehow in performance (regardless of cost), you'd see them in racing engines for cars, boats, or motorcyles.  If they were cheaper (even if crappy in performance), you'd see them in some car engines or at least some lawn-mower engines or some pump engines.  If they were better in cost/performance (where performance could be HP or emissions or weight or gas mileage, etc.), you'd see them in car engines.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 01:15:21 PM by Brooke »

Offline Charge

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Re: How Radial Engines work
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2013, 02:37:23 PM »
"If they were better somehow in performance (regardless of cost), you'd see them in racing engines for cars, boats, or motorcyles."

Well, see what happened to BRV application -FIA banned its use. Usually racing and war technology go hand in hand and those technologies tend to pave way to consumer use, unless somebody forcibly decides otherwise.

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Offline Brooke

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Re: How Radial Engines work
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2013, 03:11:14 PM »
"If they were better somehow in performance (regardless of cost), you'd see them in racing engines for cars, boats, or motorcyles."

Well, see what happened to BRV application -FIA banned its use. Usually racing and war technology go hand in hand and those technologies tend to pave way to consumer use, unless somebody forcibly decides otherwise.

-C+


True -- racing rules can ban otherwise superior technologies, but there are lots of different types of racing, all with different rules bodies.  Something banned in Formula 1 is just one venue, and I still think that history is on the side of superior applications tending to make it into commercial applications.  It can take some time, of course.

Offline morfiend

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Re: How Radial Engines work
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2013, 06:07:21 PM »
 The 1 advantage a sleeve valve engine has over a poppet valve is pre-ignition.

  You can use higher MAP's with lower quality fuels and not have to deal with overheat exhaust valves igniting the mixture. I suspect that was the reasoning behind using it in aero engines.

  The design is to complicated and complex to warrant use in automobiles,add in fuel development and computer controlled engine management and it just isn't cost effective,whether it's superior or not.


   :salute

Offline pipz

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Re: How Radial Engines work
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2013, 07:10:23 AM »
Cool videos.  :aok
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Offline Scca

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Re: How Radial Engines work
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2013, 11:57:52 AM »
At Udvar-Hazy Center in Dulles, there is a cutaway of a Pratt & Whitney Wasp Major R-4360-59B http://airandspace.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?object=nasm_A19790005000  I am pretty sure it moves like the video you posted.  Talk about a mean engine for the time.
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Offline earl1937

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Re: How Radial Engines work
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2013, 02:32:42 PM »
At Udvar-Hazy Center in Dulles, there is a cutaway of a Pratt & Whitney Wasp Major R-4360-59B http://airandspace.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?object=nasm_A19790005000  I am pretty sure it moves like the video you posted.  Talk about a mean engine for the time.
:airplane: That cutaway is also on Pratt & Whitney's web site as a historical display! You know, I was thinking of all the "brain" power that went into the design of this great engine, 28 cylinders, 4 master rods and 24 "articulating" rods, 112 valves, a carburetor which as big as most 2 PC's put together, with 5 decks and pressurized to boot. I got to prowl over one of these big engines one day at Biggs AFB in El Paso, Tx, and curiosity, I had to look at every thing I could! Fuel lines was big as 1 inch in diameter going to the engine, magneto's big as 2 metal lunch boxes and spark plugs as big as a small flash light! Wow, to bad they had to go and invent the jet engine!  :O At any rate, was a great engine and  :salute to the guys and gals who made it happen! :cheers:
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