Author Topic: Guns in AH and real life (Read 4486 times)

Hooligan · « **Reply #30 on:** May 04, 2000, 01:45:00 PM »

Pongo:

Any HE round should have no trouble penetrating through the aluminum skin of a fighter. If one actually hit armor plate or anything else really solid it would probably shatter. Of course you can make the shell sturdier by giving it thicker walls and put an AP cap on it, but then you have an APHE shell which carries much less explosive (4g instead of 18.6g in the case of the Mg151 20mm).

My understanding is that HE shells were generally fuzed to explode immediately when they hit. Think about it. If it is delayed fuzed so that it can get a foot or two into the aircraft before exploding, what happens if it hits a wing or stabilizer. You probably don't want the shell to punch all the way through a stabilizer and explode 1 foot past the aircraft.

If an HE shell is fuzed for immediate detonation it always (if the fuzing works) explodes and does structural damage to the aircraft. If it is delay-fuzed there is a good chance it can damage interals (like fuel tanks), but there is a also a chance it can shatter or pass through and detonate outside the aircraft.

Hooligan

Hristo · « **Reply #31 on:** May 04, 2000, 02:31:00 PM »

It is my perception that MG 151/20 20 mm HE round detonated after it entered the aircraft (not instantly on contact), due to its specific fusing (centrifugal detonator, sorry poor English).

Yeager · « **Reply #32 on:** May 04, 2000, 02:34:00 PM »

I have come full circle ballistics (kinda).

I was a realism fan regarding ballistics for a long while.

I am now of the opinion that gameplay AND realism need to be tempered against one another. Find the balance between the two and most folks will be pleased.

AH has done a good job overall balancing these two factors out.

Yeager

funked · « **Reply #33 on:** May 04, 2000, 02:56:00 PM »

I guess my main resistance to messing with guns is the disaster it has caused in other sims. One sim has been screwing with this issue for about a year now, and they are still apparently having major problems.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-04-2000).]

lazs · « **Reply #34 on:** May 04, 2000, 05:03:00 PM »

There are many cases of several HE 20mm rounds hitting pilot armor and not penetrating. In those cases any ap round would not be overkill. Armor on oil tanks would need ap rounds as would oxy bottles. Any angle of the hit compounds penetration problems for HE more than for AP also.. I do not believe that AP is "overkill". The LW used AP rounds in a mix for fighter loadouts. Why would they bother?

I agree somewhat with Yeager and for the same reasons..... Make em "feel" right and everyone will be happy(er) I come from a sim with wildly fluctuating leathiality ratios..... No one is happy long over there. AH seems to have the ratios pretty even handed to me.
lazs

Hooligan · « **Reply #35 on:** May 04, 2000, 06:14:00 PM »

My choice of the word "immediately" was undoubtedly poor. From what I’ve read of German fusing they could control it to a very small interval but of course the round would have to travel some distance while this was happening. I know that they used centrifugal fusing for their self-destruct mechanism. I am uncertain if they also used it as the primary fusing mechanism since many of the German explosive shells were not self-destructing (the shells which self-destruct have a specific notation in their nomenclature so it’s easy to tell which ones have this feature) and with centrifugal fusing they would have to be. It is quite possible that they had a contact fuse and the centrifugal self-destruct fuse acted as a back up. I know a couple of German guys who have loads of documents from Mauser and Rechlin. I’ll ask them and see if they can clarify.

funked · « **Reply #36 on:** May 04, 2000, 06:26:00 PM »

I have an MG 151/20 round lodged in my cranium. I'll ask it about the fuzing. Stand by.

Citabria · « **Reply #37 on:** May 04, 2000, 07:10:00 PM »

LOL!!

Vermillion · « **Reply #38 on:** May 04, 2000, 08:03:00 PM »

Oh Funked, please don't joke like that

In one of my books, I have a picture of a Bomber pilot that was hit while over Ploesti I believe.

A 20mm Cannon shell from a Bf109 went thru the pilots side window, penetrated his face at about the cheek, tore a huge hole thru his mouth/lower face, penetrated clean thru and then removed the co-pilots head entirely when it detonated.

The Pilot survived, and was captured by the Germans. The picture is the standard prisoner of war photo taken when he was interned in the POW Camp.

It is truely Ghastly

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

Hooligan · « **Reply #39 on:** May 04, 2000, 08:39:00 PM »

funky:

Did that shell nick your language centers? Fusing is spelled, well ... fusing not fuzing

.

Hooligan

funked · « **Reply #40 on:** May 04, 2000, 08:45:00 PM »

Oh great the FNG's are correcting my spelling now!

Sorry to joke about it Verm. I've read quite a few accounts of things like that. There are quite a few artifacts at the USAF museum that were parts of personal gear of crewmen hit by enemy fire. It ain't pretty.

kamel · « **Reply #41 on:** May 05, 2000, 08:13:00 AM »

Hmm, hispano really nasty and 151's weak? Sounds like the HE side is badly modelled and it all depends on KE.... again....

Sounds like WB before HE modelling?

kamel

[The aformentioned poster takes no responsibilty for any offense any reader may take from any points he may {or may not have} made in the three line post above. Any slight taken should definately be considered imaginary and due to excessive paranoia on the readers part.]

Pongo · « **Reply #42 on:** May 05, 2000, 09:59:00 AM »

Yeag, I agree. But my whole point is that the HS doenst feel ballanced with the historical record from an air to air stand point. Air to ground it is right on.
Some are confused about the fact that I have a problem with the 4 HS load out but no problem with the 2 HS load out. Well this is a simulation. there might be a line of code somewhere that says
If Damage > 121 then Boom.
And the 2 HS load out might do 61 points of damage. So the 4 gun load out does 122...BOOM
But the 2 gun 151 does 60 damage. and the 4 gun does 120. no boom. They could be a miniscule % different and have a disproportinate effect for it.

I KNOW THAT THE GUNFIRE RESOLULTION IS NOT THIS SIMPLE

But that is the kind of thing I want to keep nagging HTC about until it is resolved..or funked kills me...

[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 05-05-2000).]

funked · « **Reply #43 on:** May 05, 2000, 10:06:00 AM »

Die!!!!!!!!

Naaaaa, I hope Pyro takes a look at it too.

-lazs- · « **Reply #44 on:** May 06, 2000, 09:32:00 AM »

I just hope this doesn't turn into a "leathiality" follies thing where one tour/week/day/hour, your guns are shooting ping pong balls and the next they are instant death from nothing more than a mean glance in the nme's direction.... I've allready had my fill of that thank you very much..

To say that HE is not modeled is very simplistic IMO... Many things about leathiality are not modeled. Many vulnerable (to AP rounds) parts of AC are not modeled. To model only HE will make for unfair and unrealistic ratios.

Without doing any testing at all (perhaps others have?)....Seems that right now in AH.... 1 20mm HE is worth about 2+ fifty cal rounds and a 20mm HS is worth just a RCH more... I would say that is fair. I would also say (from experiance) that if you change that "ratio" significantly... You will make one group very happy and very guilt ridden and the other unhappy and bitter, depending on whose ox is being gored.
lazs

[This message has been edited by -lazs- (edited 05-06-2000).]