NO problem with the 51H being perked when it comes OUT i ll just...

[tom666]

There are so many planes that were lot more common than any of your megaperkmachines.
Why bring planes like P-51H ,(that I never even heard of,yeah i know i`m not as cool as you guys are...)when we don`t have the Hurricane,FW190D,He-111,P-39,IL-2,Mosquito and so on.
These planes were the backbones of their airforces.And You guys want planes that were bilt only a few dozen.What a joke!
What most seems to forget is,it`s not the plane but the pilot that wins that fight!
And what is the point of baggin on the pro-LW
people?The LW did have the most advanced planes put in service before the end of the war,whatever the reason may be.Thank God they failed to win the war with them.

[Wingnut_0]

 

Originally posted by Westy:
Damn Animal. You beat me to it. Like the MA bears any resemblance to WWII.

 Torgo, that's why I included the word "predominately" in my post. Most of those who do not want to see the late war British aircraft, or the US P51H, P-82, P-80 or P47M/N, are those that affiliate themselves, not with an aircraft type or two mind you, but a whole armed force - the LW.

  - Westy

Here we go again with Westy's "ppl that fly LW post".  You seem to miss the entire point of his post Westy cause you too damn busy firing up ur anti-LW grill....

So ppl that want a good SIM, vs. ppl that want flying fantasy don't have a good arguement?  Give me a break.

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Wingnut
Luftjagerkorps
 

The quality of the box matters little.  Success depends upon the man who sits in it  -  Baron Manfred von Richthofen

[This message has been edited by Wingnut_0 (edited 01-27-2001).]

[Torgo]

 

Originally posted by Sancho:
  No Torgo, the P-47M was the fastest prop plane to see operational service with the allies. )

I of course was talking about below 15k. The speed of something above 20k is fairly irrelevant in the main arena.

I'll post numbers in a bit.  Flown by the 56th FG from January to May 1945.  Not sure about the N... I'm pretty sure it was better than D-30, but it was mainly a long ranger variant of the jug.

The N was almost as fast as the M.

Now, the P-47M was a plane that could climb with 109s!  Under WEP, it could climb to 20k in 4.75 minutes (4210 FPM in a jug!!).

Well, I really lack a good WWII AC library, but I've not seen people complain much about the accuracy of Joe Baugher's stuff at Elevon...
 http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/

He lists these low-alt speeds:
   
                 5,000ft.       10,000ft
P-51D    395 mph.       416 mph

P-47M   None listed     400 mph

P-47N   None listed     397 mph

I think it's a safe assumption that the 5,000 ft. speeds for the M and N are even slower relative to the 51 than at 10,000 ft.

N was only 10 mph slower (460 vs. 470 mph) at 30,000 ft.

Your listed climb rate seems far higher than what Baugher has. Nothing new.

This sort of stuff can vary wildly depending on how testing was done.

Baugher has 3500 feet per minute at 5000 feet and 2650 feet per minute at 20,000 feet...



[This message has been edited by Torgo (edited 01-27-2001).]

[BMF]

Do I see this clearly? The difference is in having fun versus taking it too seriously?

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Bare*Metal*Finish

[Jimdandy]

 

Originally posted by Animal:
Raubvogel why dont you just quit now?
I mean, inst a 109 vs Niki a fantasy engagement?

LOL very good point.

[LJK Raubvogel]

 

Originally posted by Westy:
These are aircraft that would have been at the front, and earlier than you can imagine, had the Allies been under the same life or death pressure and dire need to push literally anything with wings and an engine out the door into the air.
  - Westy

Exactly, would have but weren't. It's that simple. Bring on the P-47M and N. Give the Brits their Meteor. You keep putting words in my mouth like I don't want to see late war Brit and US planes, you are wrong. Bring em on if they flew combat sorties. I can even see including the Meteor even though it never engaged in plane vs plane combat.

This has nothing to do with what you perceive as my Pro-LW stance. This has to do with history. You say that the MA isn't realistic now? So where exactly do you draw the line at stretching realism to fantasy. To me, this a clearly defined line between what is history and fantasy.

Westy, me thinks you just sniff out any thread that is vaguely pro-LW and do a typing HO at it.  

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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

 

[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 01-27-2001).]

[GRUNHERZ]

Now u guys want an F80 and F82?????????? Ok thats fine ill take the first late 1945 batch of Ta183s with 4 MG213 very high rof hi velocity 20/30mm rotary cannon, thats fair I mean Its not its fault "Donitz was chicken and ended the war in may" Ill see your measly 560mph F80 and raise u my 600mph Ta183!   But then ud ask for F86 and its nasty German swept wing. Right? I know we were all disapointed by Mig Alley but that doesnt mean that AH should move in and fill the gap with all our fantasy 1946 planes. BTW does 2 P80  demos showing off in Italy count as combat now????? There were all ready almost 600mph fast 262s being testflown in the spring, plus they had 2 or 3 in the shop being fitted with Mg213 cannon and new BMW motors just as the war ended, surely thats OK too, right???? Or how about  620mph MeP1101L, you might be more familiar with it as (basically) the the US postwar Bell X-5. Im sorry guys but AH cant become some wierd postwar "what if" fantasy scenario. I really dont care what gets added, Ill be able to buy and fly whatever US, German, British, Russian, Japanese, perk uber-ride just as much as you or anyone else. There is no real reason this has to some Allied vs LW thing, we can all fly the same planes, Im just honestly worried that this can hurt the games realism by introducing planes that didnt participate in the war.

thanks GRUNHERZ

[BMF]

The name Aces High does not mean WWII only though. What difference does it make if we all have the same chance to get better planes?

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Bare*Metal*Finish

[Laika]

Post WWII rides ? So do the Axis get shafted or get the prototypes & drawing modelled after 1945 ? Just wondering... and don't point the LW stick at me, I've only been flying the La5  

[M.C.202]

This subject has gone around and around in other threads.

Here are some points to consider before gushing out the same stuff as last time:

1. DO YOU WANT A RE-CREATION OF THE REAL WORLD OR NOT.

If YES:
then look to see what the most COMMON rides in a given date spread were.
That is what you get, in the most common set-up. Allow aircraft in the game at the
same percentage that they were used in WWII.

Don't like what ya get that way, too bad, yer
a draftee, just shut up and fly it. That's
what the real pilots did.

And it would need to be done in an advancing date format.

What U.S. heavy bomber was the most common found in combat in the last months of the war?

There would be two groups allowed to fly a mix of Axis and Allied aircraft. Italy and Finland.
No German vs IJN/A aircraft.

If NO:
then the only question is HOW FAR into fantasy you want to go, not if.

Do you allow a "combat" aircraft that caused less damage to the foe than errors in the
landing pattern in one week did?

How about an aircraft built in numbers under 20? 50? 100? 500?

Built in bigger numbers and delivered to combat units, but not found in "combat"
before VJ day? VE day?

Aircraft that had prototype work done, but production slowed as the end was not in
question, so why hurry?

The A-Bomb? If not how about spending the money it took on conventional weapon
construction instead?

Please re-think your "standard, mass production, combat issue" response using the
above questions, and then answer again.




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M.C.202
Dino in Reno

[Spatula]

Are the LW guys worried about the P51-H? The Me262 is faster and way better gunned! Agreed the P51-H never saw combat, and the 262 did.

But if the problem is in gameplay balance, then the 262 more than balances the Monster P51.

[Hangtime]

Main Arena: "WHAT IF!!.."

Historical Arena: "WHAT WAS!!.."

Everything about MA play from icons to CV's, the way we fly; the way we organise, the interaction of P51 vs F6F vs N1K vs FW19, etc is WHAT IF.

Sure.. all that neat exotic stuff the LW was working on as well as planes like the P51H ought to be modeled and available in the MA. Inaddition to early war too.. the more planes the better. HTC has made it abunadantly clear they will do early war stuff as well as the interesting late war stuff.. and just because a plane didn't see combat shouldn't (and won't) make it inadmittable in the MA or the sim! It's about flying 'intresting planes in intresting ways against intrestiong opponents'! MA should be inclusionary; HA exclusionary based on timeline (RPS).

For the HA, a RPS and keep it going right on thru 1946 or even longer for planes.. historical matchups, country matchups, all that neato stuff... airwar circa 1946 at the end of the RPS.  

Too often we all fall into this absurd tail-chase of trying to make the MA the HA.. we don't HAVE a HA.. we gotta MA, it's DIFFERENT... it's "WHAT IF!!.."

Yes; we NEED an HA.. tell HTC so!  




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Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders"  << Recruiting!!

[GRUNHERZ]

Maybe im kinda nutz but I dont think ill like the 262 in here or that it will present any problems to anyone except maybe buff pilots, but even here who would risk their XXXX point 262 by getting inside the 300yd and under range of the MK108- considering just how bad and unrealistic the buff guns are. Plus one must remember that although the 262 was fast it was by no means quick, taking all the time in the world to build up speed. Due to the icon system all you have to do is see the diving 262 and simply move out of its way. What can the 262 do after that, he dare not go vertical and loose speed- no hell just run away in a shallow 500mph climb, hoping to find someone asleep. MK108 shooting is not like Hispano spraying, plus with nose mounted guns in here being a disadvantage the 262 will just make very pretty and fast airshow performance. It will of curse be untouchable if kept fast and high. Actually itll be a kind of super 109G10 except without clibing power, accel, or the G10s (relatively speaking) outstanding manouverability. You all know what to do when a G10 dives on u, I think Funked said it the best - something bout piss poor gunnery pass then run away. Dont get me wrong here its speed will be annoying and if those 4 30mm find a buff itll all go very well, but vs fighters in here it will be a minor nuisance. Basically the 262s performance superiority was much more relevant in RL where it was tasked with penetrating a 1000+ P51/P47/P38 escort screen and attacking the bombers, in here no such missions will ever exist ( 2 AH buffs in formation dont need escort vs most non chog planes). Personally the 51H,Ta152,Tempest will be 10x as useful compared to 262.

thanks GRUNHERZ

[Hobodog]

This is too what if. But speeking hypotheticly can we put that 25000hp P&W    R-2800-59 in the p38 just a little wing engineering to go from a V12 to the best damn radial(with all radials being the superior aircraft engine.) of the woar.

[Westy]

 WRONG Wingnut, I'm not anti LW. I'm not anti-anything except I am staunchly anti-roadkill.
 You may have your opinion and I mine. That being said it is my opinion that the vast majority of those who object to any plane being included in AH because it did not see combat are predominately those who pretend to be a WWII LW pilot.
  HTC has not mentioned anything futuristic or proto-tpyish like the F-86, MIG-15 or Horton GO-229's. DO-335's, HE-162's, P51H or the P-51M are valid for WWII aircraft. Don't like it? Too bad as I said before but it's not fantasy. For an example of pure adolecent wishy washy fantasy head on over  to the web site "Luft'46"

 Tom666? Get a grip. Every time you post I start to wonder if you have a clue.

  -Westy