LtCondor - Overshoots, angles, and some other stuff

[The Fugitive]

Which word don't you understand? You know what a circle is? Lift vector was explained as your "up" view. What are you confused about?
Take any of your dogfight films and turn trails on, watch from the fixed view, zoomed out enough to see the geometry of the fight. You will see that you can only get shot outside of the bandit's turn circle and you can only shoot the bandit when he's outside of your turn circle. This tells you where you need to fly to avoid getting shot. It's really that simple.

What is not understandable is how it all comes together. Is the circle and lift vector pictured as a thumb tack with the point of the tack always pointing up through the center of your canopy? Or do the circles move and change as your path changes? With the film viewer and trails, we are seeing the flight in 3 dimensions and so only "see" a circle when a person pulls a flat turn ( more often than not a BIG no-no). How do the "circles" relate to the twisting and spiraling trails we see in the film viewer?

Latrobe's explanation was more along the lines of "if you do this, a good opponent will do this and your in the tower, other options that may save you are option A and option B and this is why" The "why" is explained as "you will save E here" or "he will burn a lot more E here" or "he can't pull for a shot because ..." All very easy to understand.

I would love to understand more about circles and such but nobody has be able to explain it so an idiot like me could grasp it. I was hoping you could add the circles and so make it easier to understand. 

[BaldEagl]

Which word don't you understand? You know what a circle is? Lift vector was explained as your "up" view. What are you confused about?
Take any of your dogfight films and turn trails on, watch from the fixed view, zoomed out enough to see the geometry of the fight. You will see that you can only get shot outside of the bandit's turn circle and you can only shoot the bandit when he's outside of your turn circle. This tells you where you need to fly to avoid getting shot. It's really that simple.

As a trainer don't you think it might be more constructive to find a better way to get through to a prospective student than to berate him and be combative?  In this case the student is even telling you his preferred method of learning.

[FLS]

What is not understandable is how it all comes together. Is the circle and lift vector pictured as a thumb tack with the point of the tack always pointing up through the center of your canopy? Or do the circles move and change as your path changes? With the film viewer and trails, we are seeing the flight in 3 dimensions and so only "see" a circle when a person pulls a flat turn ( more often than not a BIG no-no). How do the "circles" relate to the twisting and spiraling trails we see in the film viewer?

Latrobe's explanation was more along the lines of "if you do this, a good opponent will do this and your in the tower, other options that may save you are option A and option B and this is why" The "why" is explained as "you will save E here" or "he will burn a lot more E here" or "he can't pull for a shot because ..." All very easy to understand.

I would love to understand more about circles and such but nobody has be able to explain it so an idiot like me could grasp it. I was hoping you could add the circles and so make it easier to understand. 

As you correctly point out, the circle changes position as you roll your lift vector.  The circle is actually a 3D bubble of potential turns. We use the 2D circle for simplicity by only considering the slice of the bubble defined by the lift vector. A good way to understand it is to watch your fight films with trails on. This way you teach yourself to analyze fights. Once you understand ACM you can drive the fight instead of reacting to it. Learning the basics is much less work then learning the specifics of every possible situation and gives you the same result or better. Watch some films with trails on, look for the turn circles, then get back to me with questions.

As a trainer don't you think it might be more constructive to find a better way to get through to a prospective student than to berate him and be combative?  In this case the student is even telling you his preferred method of learning.

As a trainer I find it best to teach the most efficient and effective way to understand ACM. If a student prefers to learn a different way they have that choice.

In Klingon I wasn't combative, I was exceptionally nice.   

[The Fugitive]

As you correctly point out, the circle changes position as you roll your lift vector.  The circle is actually a 3D bubble of potential turns. We use the 2D circle for simplicity by only considering the slice of the bubble defined by the lift vector. A good way to understand it is to watch your fight films with trails on. This way you teach yourself to analyze fights. Once you understand ACM you can drive the fight instead of reacting to it. Learning the basics is much less work then learning the specifics of every possible situation and gives you the same result or better. Watch some films with trails on, look for the turn circles, then get back to me with questions.

As a trainer I find it best to teach the most efficient and effective way to understand ACM. If a student prefers to learn a different way they have that choice.

In Klingon I wasn't combative, I was exceptionally nice.   

LOL!!! I have been playing this game for over 11 years and have watched hundreds of thousands of films (I film each fight, and spend sunday morning going through the fights I had the previous week). I understand BFM and ACM's. I understand as Morph is so fond of saying, "pushing your opponent forward through your "up", "up forward","forward" view which translates to "point your lift vector behind your opponent". I have also read about "circle fighting" from you and a number of other players, but have never been able to grasp what is meant by it.

Teaching "the most efficient and effective way to understand ACM" may be a good idea, only if you can make those ideas understandable. I'm not trying to bust your chops here, I really would like to understand this.

[Muzzy]

See one, do one, teach one.

[Latrobe]

Maybe I'll post some more pictures explaining lift vectors and the circles. I think I understand what FLS is trying to explain.

[FLS]

LOL!!! I have been playing this game for over 11 years and have watched hundreds of thousands of films (I film each fight, and spend sunday morning going through the fights I had the previous week). I understand BFM and ACM's. I understand as Morph is so fond of saying, "pushing your opponent forward through your "up", "up forward","forward" view which translates to "point your lift vector behind your opponent". I have also read about "circle fighting" from you and a number of other players, but have never been able to grasp what is meant by it.

Teaching "the most efficient and effective way to understand ACM" may be a good idea, only if you can make those ideas understandable. I'm not trying to bust your chops here, I really would like to understand this.

I don't know the expression "circle fighting" but I believe all of your films illustrate turn circles. I explained what they are already. If you reread the explanation and watch your films as I suggested you may have an epiphany. If that doesn't help you might schedule some training.
The concept is pretty simple so you may just be overthinking it. I'm at work so I can't add pictures but I think, after 11years, you can figure it out if I point you in the right direction. If you fight someone in the TA and they have smoke on it can be easier to visualize the circle. The tail end of the smoke is also a useful guide for lag pursuit.

[Latrobe]

Here's what I think FLS is trying to say.

Lift Vector
All planes create lift, that's how they're able to fly. The engine provides thrust (or forward momentum if you like). The forward momentum creates airflow over the wings. The wings are designed to provided lift and when you get enough airflow over the wings you fly! Lift vector is just a fancy way of describing this. Your plane raises up into the air, so your Lift Vector is pointed straight up above you (tilt your head back and looks straight up. That's the direction of your Lift vector.)

(Note: The other two forces at work here are Gravity and Drag, but we're explaining Lift vectors so I left them out.)


In this rolling scissors fight I am positioning my lift vector behind LtCondor's plane. I'm doing this because I want to get onto his 6 before I start lining up my shot.



From LtCondor's perspective we can see his lift vector is positioned in front of my plane. He's maneuvering his plane to try and get a shot on me. He won't get that shot though because I've positioned my lift vector behind him to try and get on his 6. This also puts my plane inside his turn circle. (Turn circles will be explained very soon!  )



A few seconds later I win the rolling scissors and get behind LtCondor's 3-9 line and am ready to start lining up my shot. (3-9 line: Draw a line right across their plane from wingtip to wingtip, also called the 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock positions hence the name 3-9 line. Everything behind that line is on their 6 or behind them. Everything in front of that line is on their 12 or in front of them.)




Turning Circles
Turning circles are quite literally the circle you make when you turn your plane. In this first image I am turning into LtCondor at maximum G's. LtCondor is inside my turn circle so if he were to hover right there like a helicopter then I would be physically incapable of ever shooting him because I simply can not get my guns on him. I'm already pulling maximum G's in my turn. The orange circle shows how tight I can get my turn and at no point would I be able to pull lead on LtCondor and get a shot.



However, that is just one nano-second of a moment in the fight. There are tons of other variables are work here. LtCondor was faster than me and pulling a lead turn the whole way through my turn. He is going too fast to keep inside my turn and starts to drift outside of my turn circle. In this next image we see that he has started to cross from inside my turn circle to outside my turn circle (the orange circle). At the same time we see that I have moved from outside his turn circle to inside his turn circle (the white circle). This is also called a flight path overshoot and is the first step to forcing a 3-9 line overshoot (where he literally flies out in front of you).



These circles are constantly changing at all times during a fight. Loosening or tightening a turn will create larger or smaller turn circles. The direction of your turn will obviously decide in which way your turn circle is. Most bizarre of all is these turn circles are not actually circles. They're spheres. Planes can also climb and dive as well as turn left and right. Turn circles are created whether your perform a flat turn, and immelman, or a split-s. You can combine horizontal and vertical flight to turn in any direction you want in the sphere.

To show just how drastic and sudden turn circles can change, here's an image of that same fight just 1 second later. I reverse my turn back into LtCondor. This reverses the direction of my turn circle as well. Now instead of my turn circle being back towards our previous flight paths, it is heading the other way away from our previous flight paths. Into our flight paths one second, away from them the next.



For anyone thinking "Well now he's back inside your turn circle and he's going to shoot you!" Remember, turn CIRCLES are SPHERES. In this case I also went into a climb over the top of LtCondor and he misses the shot and overshoots. 

[FLS]

I think you'll find the turn circle is a very useful concept. The next thing to learn is the post, which is the center of the circle, and the entry window behind the post, for efficiently flying to the bandit's 6. I'll put a pic up when I get home.

[Latrobe]

The next thing to learn is the post, which is the center of the circle, and the entry window behind the post, for efficiently flying to the bandit's 6. I'll put a pic up when I get home.

I think I've done that before. Is that where you predict your opponents turn and start your attack run before his turn and catch him at a certain point in his turn? I might have done this a few times when killing planes hiding in base ack. I start my attack as they're just coming out of the ack knowing that they will turn back once they get too far. I usually get them about halfway through their turn as they try to get back to the ack.

[FLS]

I think I've done that before. Is that where you predict your opponents turn and start your attack run before his turn and catch him at a certain point in his turn? I might have done this a few times when killing planes hiding in base ack. I start my attack as they're just coming out of the ack knowing that they will turn back once they get too far. I usually get them about halfway through their turn as they try to get back to the ack.

Eventually you learn a lot through experience but starting with the basic concepts should help people learn faster. Flying behind the post to the entry window gives you enough turning room to approximately match flight paths. Flying in front of the post leads to a flight path overshoot and may allow the bandit to turn to your 6. The choice is based on whether you want a tracking shot or a crossing snap shot.

[FLS]

Don't mind the jets, it's from an AF manual.

[The Fugitive]

Don't mind the jets, it's from an AF manual.

can you explain what we are seeing here and how to use the circles, entry window and so on. It looks like the chase plane pulls a hard angle between "B" and "C". Is this a drawing mistake, or is the chase plane pulling inside they others circle? If so how if we assume like aircraft?

[FLS]

can you explain what we are seeing here and how to use the circles, entry window and so on. It looks like the chase plane pulls a hard angle between "B" and "C". Is this a drawing mistake, or is the chase plane pulling inside they others circle? If so how if we assume like aircraft?

The point of the illustration is to show you where to enter the bandit's turn circle in order to fly to their 6. With  that in mind look at the circles Latrobe drew on his screenshots. Flying behind the post to the entry window gives you enough turning room to approximately match flight paths. Flying in front of the post leads to a flight path overshoot and may allow the bandit to turn to your 6. The choice is based on whether you want a tracking shot or a crossing snap shot.

[BaldEagl]

Don't mind the jets, it's from an AF manual.

Well that picture doesn't explain anything other than that the inside plane can evidently turn harder than the outside plane which he seems to do well after passing through the illustrated "entry window".