Spitfire Mk V and Spitfire Mk IX bomb load

[artik]

I'm working on some SEA setup/terrain and to my surprise I have found that neither Spit V nor Spit IX have bombs load-out in AH. The historical aircraft could actually carry bombs...

1. Any ideas why?
2. Is there anything I can do about it besides replacing it with another spitfire variant?

[Karnak]

They are modeled as the earliest examples of each type.  I am not sure when the ability to carry a 500lb bomb was added to the Mk V, but I think the F.Mk IX could carry one but just did not as it was too important to counter the Fw190 in the air.

If you are doing a setting set in mid-1943 or later the Spitfire Mk VIII is a good stand in for a Spitfire LF.Mk IX.  If you are doing mid-1944 or later use the Spitfire Mk XVI.  The Seafire might substitute for the Spitfire Mk V, if it has a bomb.

[jeffdn]

They are modeled as the earliest examples of each type.  I am not sure when the ability to carry a 500lb bomb was added to the Mk V, but I think the F.Mk IX could carry one but just did not as it was too important to counter the Fw190 in the air.

If you are doing a setting set in mid-1943 or later the Spitfire Mk VIII is a good stand in for a Spitfire LF.Mk IX.  If you are doing mid-1944 or later use the Spitfire Mk XVI.  The Seafire might substitute for the Spitfire Mk V, if it has a bomb.

He's setting up an Israeli War of Independence scenario set in 1948.

[artik]

He's setting up an Israeli War of Independence scenario set in 1948.

Yes, indeed.

REAF had Spit V, Spit IX and Macchi 205. All could carry bombs, but neither of them actually has them in AH. REAF spitfires used to bomb Tel-Aviv until the first S-199 entered the service. Also there were Hawker Sea Furies but they are missing in AH planeset.

On Israeli side I have 109G6 (S199), Mustang, Spit IXLF (actually = Spit XVI in AH) and Mosquito. Also the last one hadn't seen the action in Independence war. Most of the IAF Mosquitoes were acquired after the end of the war, but AH does not have Bristol Beaufighter, so I alter a plane set a little in terms of historical accuracy.

So basically all IAF fighter are dual role fighter/attack while neither REAF aircraft in AH is capable of executing attack missions (unlike real ones) - this isn't good at all.

So I have no attack aircraft for 1948 setup for REAF.

So I'll probably need to add one of:

- Hurricane IIc - REAF operated them before the war. According to some sources 4 still were in service when the war had began. But AFAIK they didn't see any action in the war.
- SBD (as a substitute for Harward T-6)... but it lives REAF with very weak attack forces.

For heavy bombers the situation is much better:

IAF had B-17G, REAF had Short Stirling. It is substituted by Lancaster which entered REAF service only in 1949 about 1/2 a year after the end of the war. But in terms of capabilities they are quite similar.

[GScholz]

Wouldn't the Egyptian Spit IXs be late models too? Just give them the XVI. Substitute the Seafire II for the Spit V. The Seafire can carry a bomb/DT.

[Karnak]

Wouldn't the Egyptian Spit IXs be late models too? Just give them the XVI. Substitute the Seafire II for the Spit V. The Seafire can carry a bomb/DT.

Yes, they would not have been F.Mk IXs as in AH.  The Spit XVI should be used for any post war Merlin Spit use.

[artik]

Wouldn't the Egyptian Spit IXs be late models too? Just give them the XVI. Substitute the Seafire II for the Spit V. The Seafire can carry a bomb/DT.

Spit XVI has clipped wings while Egyptian Spits were regular Spit IX. Also note, IAF had clipped wings Spitfire IXLF which according to this is XVI in AH.

As you can only have one skin per plane embedded to the terrain I can't have Spit IX or Spit XVI on both sides.

So actually the spitfire set V, IX and XVI is fine, but REAF spits are lacking A/G weapons.

About Seafire... It maybe a good idea. But... I had already skinned Spit V to REAF markings. Also substituting Spit V which is historical aircraft with Seafire which by no means had flown in Independence War IMHO is bad taste. 

[Karnak]

Spit XVI has clipped wings while Egyptian Spits were regular Spit IX. Also note, IAF had clipped wings Spitfire IXLF which according to this is XVI in AH.

As you can only have one skin per plane embedded to the terrain I can't have Spit IX or Spit XVI on both sides.

So actually the spitfire set V, IX and XVI is fine, but REAF spits are lacking A/G weapons.

About Seafire... It maybe a good idea. But... I had already skinned Spit V to REAF markings. Also substituting Spit V which is historical aircraft with Seafire which by no means had flown in Independence War IMHO is bad taste. 

Clipped wings aren't what determines LF vs F vs HF.  That is determined by the engine.  The Merlin 61 Spitfire Mk IX is completely inappropriate for post war stuff.  Use the Mk VIII as it has the same engine as the LF.Mk IX.

[GScholz]

The Seafire II is a navalised Spitfire V. In AH their performance is identical.

[Karnak]

They got Seafire IIIs anyways, far better than the Seafire II we have in AH.

About the Spit IX, read my thread on the subject, at least my OP:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,353807.0.html

Merlin 61 F.Mk IX is not at all appropriate for what you're doing.  Don't be fooled by the Mk IX designation.

[artik]

The point, that "Post War" does not mean up-to-date planes... In many cases 2nd hand aircraft in poor conditions were acquired (especially by IAF that needed anything that could be received in any manner)

Exact Israeli model was Spitfire LF IXc and later Spitfire LF IXe as well.

REAF I know about Spit Vc. It seems that REAF had Spitfire LF IXe and LF IXc as well... But all Egyptian spitfires seems to have normal Wings where most Israeli, clipped ones.


Arrrhhhhh.

[Karnak]

The wing tips are irrelevant.  They can be changed in 30 minutes at the airfield.  The engine is what determines if it is an LF, F or HF.

Merlin 66 = LF (vast majority of Spit IXs)
Merlin 61 or 63 = F (AH Spit IX has a 61, only ~300 of such were built and it has the lowest performance of any Spit IX.  Highly unlikely any ended up in foreign service)
Merlin 70 = HF

Spitfire Mk VIII's follow the same pattern with the engines and the one in AH has the Merlin 66.

The Spitfire Mk XVI had an American built Merlin 66 called the Merlin 266 and is thus effectively just a Spitfire LF.Mk IX.


There is no such thing as a Spitfire Mk IXc.

[artik]

The wing tips are irrelevant.  They can be changed in 30 minutes at the airfield.  The engine is what determines if it is an LF, F or HF.

Merlin 66 = LF (vast majority of Spit IXs)
Merlin 61 or 63 = F (AH Spit IX has a 61, only ~300 of such were built and it has the lowest performance of any Spit IX.  Highly unlikely any ended up in foreign service)
Merlin 70 = HF

Spitfire Mk VIII's follow the same pattern with the engines and the one in AH has the Merlin 66.
The Spitfire Mk XVI had an American built Merlin 66 called the Merlin 266 and is thus effectively just a Spitfire LF.Mk IX.

If XVI is LF Mk IX, What is VIII in terms of IX?

There is no such thing as a Spitfire Mk IXc.

  

Ok... Thanks!!! 

Not that I'm less confused I just understand that I understand less than I thought.

So I basically can give IAF Spitfire XVI and REAF Spitfire VIII and it should be ok?


I had collected the set of Photos of REAF spitfires... Any chance to distinguish between them?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lYvxMG9q7wc/TUpcASKuLiI/AAAAAAAACIQ/nGTmo4SjOsU/s1600/Picture%2B18.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Egyptian_Plane_TA_1948.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_eQNPu6zzxaU/TG_3nqu-C9I/AAAAAAAAx8s/0ZAkywmA9i8/s640/15298039.jpg
http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/LFIX-EAF-661/pages/Spitfire-MkIX-REAF-shot-down-by-Lou-Lenart-Eygpt-1948-01.html
http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/LFIX-EAF-661/pages/Spitfire-MkIX-REAF-pilots-pose-for-a-photo-Eygpt-1948-01.html
http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/LFIX-EAF-661/pages/Spitfire-MkIX-REAF-shot-down-near-the-Eygptian-boarder-1948-01.html
http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/LFIX-EAF-661/pages/Spitfire-MkVb-Trop-REAF-White-C-ER602-Egypt-1946-01.html

[Karnak]

So I basically can give IAF Spitfire XVI and REAF Spitfire VIII and it should be ok?

Yes, that is what I would do.

The AH models would be this in terms in IXs:

Spitfire Mk XVI = Spitfire LF.Mk IXe with clipped wings

Spitfire Mk VIII = Spitfire LF.Mk IX with full span universal wing (the thing that is mistakenly called a "c" wing in Mk IXs and was a "c" wing on Mk Vs.)

The Spit VIII has wing tanks, a retractable tail wheel and short span ailerons that are different from the Mk IX, but it is the closest match we have to a full span LF.Mk IX in AH.

[artik]

Yes, that is what I would do.

The AH models would be this in terms in IXs:

Spitfire Mk XVI = Spitfire LF.Mk IXe with clipped wings

Spitfire Mk VIII = Spitfire LF.Mk IX with full span universal wing (the thing that is mistakenly called a "c" wing in Mk IXs and was a "c" wing on Mk Vs.)

The Spit VIII has wing tanks, a retractable tail wheel and short span ailerons that are different from the Mk IX, but it is the closest match we have to a full span LF.Mk IX in AH.

Many thanks!!!