Reconsider HVAP loads

[715]

I was referring to taking away HVAP from Russian tanks, not to adding it to German tanks.  As you point out it doesn't matter what shell the Panther or Tiger or even Panzer uses; I have to count on killing it with my first shot before it gets to use that shell.  With HVAP my T34/85 is not a completely helpless target; I once killed four King Tigers in rapid succession with HVAP.   Without HVAP there is no point in even firing; it won't do anything even at short range.

[Tank-Ace]

I was referring to taking away HVAP from Russian tanks, not to adding it to German tanks.  As you point out it doesn't matter what shell the Panther or Tiger or even Panzer uses; I have to count on killing it with my first shot before it gets to use that shell.

Why? You're in a VASTLY inferior tank. Why should you be able to count on oneshotting anything this side of a Panther, when they can't count on the same? Why should you be able to count on doing it 20 TIMES, when even the M4 of comparable price can't count on doing it once?

With HVAP my T34/85 is not a completely helpless target; I once killed four King Tigers in rapid succession with HVAP. Without HVAP there is no point in even firing; it won't do anything even at short range.

So its still only slightly helpless despite being able to kill 4 Tiger II's "in rapid succession"? And it would be completely helpless with a gun performing about the same as the Panzer IV F2's, which is enough to make that tank a credible threat to anything in the game, even with only 50mm of armor. Past a parity in guns, the T-34/85 is markedly superior to the Panzer IV F2.

Basically, what you're saying is the T-34/85 is an ENY 35 tank, if it weren't for HVAP. You do understand that, don't you? But then if you NEED HVAP to be successful, you just suck in tanks.

[lyric1]

So it seems that Tank-Ace's request has merit as an either/or thing.

Either reduce the T-34's HVAP load to 5 and keep the other tanks as they are, other than the M18 and perhaps the Panzer IV F, or retain the higher load of HVAP for the T-34s and give 5 rounds to the Sherman and Panzer IV H along with the 10 rounds for the M18 and perhaps the Panzer IV F.

He should get to keep his cake or eat it, but not both.

Ahh no.
If you look futher down on the thread it shows the standard load out. So you can't just pick HVAP to change on the load out using this logic. Do you really want T34-76's in AHII to always have 75 rounds HE, 2O rounds AP then 5 HVAP? Not much point to up a T34 to go to tank spawn fight with that load out. So I think HTC has it right as the Book says load out based off the mission required.

Don't know enough yet on the other tanks to comment at this point.

[lyric1]

Didn't the ostwind and nimrod carry a few ap rounds?

Ostwind & Wirbelwind both did.

[715]

Why? You're in a VASTLY inferior tank. Why should you be able to count on oneshotting anything this side of a Panther, when they can't count on the same?

Huh?  The Panther (or Tiger I or Tiger II) can one shot kill my T34/85 from any angle and virtually any range.  If I cannot one shot kill them at short range there is no point in engaging them at all.  How long am I going to last when he knows where I am?

So its still only slightly helpless despite being able to kill 4 Tiger II's "in rapid succession"?

Three were point blank range to the sides from an ambush position, one was to the side from about 1K; all were using HVAP.

And it would be completely helpless with a gun performing about the same as the Panzer IV F2's, which is enough to make that tank a credible threat to anything in the game, even with only 50mm of armor. Past a parity in guns, the T-34/85 is markedly superior to the Panzer IV F2.

Basically, what you're saying is the T-34/85 is an ENY 35 tank, if it weren't for HVAP. You do understand that, don't you? But then if you NEED HVAP to be successful, you just suck in tanks.

A credible threat to anything?  With AP only, and against the frontal armor, the T34/85 cannot kill a Panther, or Tiger I, or Tiger II even at 200 yds (except for a small target below the Panthers glacis).  This is from offline testing.

[wpeters]

IN wwll  a m4  could one shot a panther from longer distances than a 1000 yds by shooting AP round at the ground in front of it..   The round would richot up into the bottom armor of the panther light skin at the bottom.  I HTC is right with the way they have it.

[Butcher]

My only problem with changing the load out for both the PanzerH and T34/85 is the eny would need to reflect it.
Pz4 goes from 25 to 20 Eny and T34 would drop from 1 perk to 0.

What I have on file, shows tankers generally loaded on the mission, not a standard loadout, technically HTC has it correct. Panzer4 rarely if ever carried any special ammo, same for the Brumbar which was a 150mm support tank, it could "carry" special AP rounds, but rarely ever did as it was simply not available either.

[lyric1]

My only problem with changing the load out for both the PanzerH and T34/85 is the eny would need to reflect it.
Pz4 goes from 25 to 20 Eny and T34 would drop from 1 perk to 0.

What I have on file, shows tankers generally loaded on the mission, not a standard loadout, technically HTC has it correct. Panzer4 rarely if ever carried any special ammo, same for the Brumbar which was a 150mm support tank, it could "carry" special AP rounds, but rarely ever did as it was simply not available either.

You must have not taken the T-34/85 up in a while then. Going price is between 2-4 perks typically now.

[Tank-Ace]

Huh?  The Panther (or Tiger I or Tiger II) can one shot kill my T34/85 from any angle and virtually any range.  If I cannot one shot kill them at short range there is no point in engaging them at all.  How long am I going to last when he knows where I am?

You're in a T-34/85 facing tanks that are VASTLY superior to you; you shouldn't expect to last.

Three were point blank range to the sides from an ambush position, one was to the side from about 1K; all were using HVAP.

Yeah, and you could still do this just as well with 5 HVAP rounds as you could with 20.

The fact remains that you want to be able to stand up and hit with the big boys paying 15 perks, while you yourself are only paying 2-3. And you want to do that for your entire sortie.

In Aces High, I guarantee that 90% of people running the T-34/85 are using HVAP exclusively, which is emphatically not how things worked in real life. It is also unfair, given that under 800yds or so, the T-34/85's gun is FAR better than a 2-3 perk tank deserves. Under 800 yds, the T-34/85 is competitive with the Firefly, which is a 12 perk tank last I checked.

A credible threat to anything?  With AP only, and against the frontal armor, the T34/85 cannot kill a Panther, or Tiger I, or Tiger II even at 200 yds (except for a small target below the Panthers glacis).  This is from offline testing.

Turret of the Panther should also be vulnerable under about 800yds or so. And that glacis plate isn't too difficult to hit, and makes the Panther vulnerable out to 1600yds. Tiger I should be vulnerable to 1600yds or so as well, realistically more like 1200yds unless you can't aim.

You should NEVER expect to be able to tangle with a King Tiger head on in anything not mountin an 88mm L/71. Ever. Period. End of story. At best, you should be hoping you can get in a lucky shot to the lower hull in a Panther, Firefly, or using one of your HVAP rounds. Thats the best you should be able to hope for.

[Tank-Ace]

My only problem with changing the load out for both the PanzerH and T34/85 is the eny would need to reflect it.
Pz4 goes from 25 to 20 Eny and T34 would drop from 1 perk to 0.

What I have on file, shows tankers generally loaded on the mission, not a standard loadout, technically HTC has it correct. Panzer4 rarely if ever carried any special ammo, same for the Brumbar which was a 150mm support tank, it could "carry" special AP rounds, but rarely ever did as it was simply not available either.

Regardless, there's nothing to justify the T-34's getting an unusually large amount of HVAP ammunition, and the Panzers and M18 getting nothing.

It is at least an either/or situation. And as I said, I would be fine with either the T-34's HVAP load being severely reduced, or the Panzers and M18 getting APCR.

[Lusche]

. It is also unfair, given that under 800yds or so, the T-34/85's gun is FAR better than a 2-3 perk tank deserves. Under 800 yds, the T-34/85 is competitive with the Firefly, which is a 12 perk tank last I checked.

Firefly = 4 perks.

[SmokinLoon]

I'm just putting this out there just in case some are not aware:


HVAP offers an advantage over AP rounds at LESS than 1200 yards.  Any distance over that and the ability to penetrate armor is back in favor of the regular AP round.  If the target is a thin skinned gv (M3, M8, M18, etc), then keep on using the HVAP thanks to a much mroe flat trajectory.  But otherwise, beyond 1200 yards the regular AP round will perform better.

[Tank-Ace]

Firefly = 4 perks.

They dropped it back to 4 perks? That would explain the higher number of them I've been seeing lately.

[Lusche]

They dropped it back to 4 perks? That would explain the higher number of them I've been seeing lately.

Or players trying to get kills in a British tank for achievement reputation points... 

[Karnak]

You should NEVER expect to be able to tangle with a King Tiger head on in anything not mountin an 88mm L/71. Ever. Period. End of story. At best, you should be hoping you can get in a lucky shot to the lower hull in a Panther, Firefly, or using one of your HVAP rounds. Thats the best you should be able to hope for.

Yup.  Just wants uber German tanks to be invulnerable to non-German stuff.