Author Topic: Best Heavy Fighter  (Read 33602 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #420 on: November 24, 2013, 04:32:54 PM »
Since you haven't put up jaw, does that mean you will shut up?

It should be noted hat jaw is a prolific poster on Barbi's board. Does anything else have to be said?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 04:39:12 PM by MiloMorai »

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #421 on: November 24, 2013, 04:37:35 PM »
M.M. do - kindly - look up the meaning of irony..
 
[& just quietly, - you are humiliating yourself, again]..

"Cybermen don't make promises..
Such ideas have no value."

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #422 on: November 24, 2013, 04:43:33 PM »
Since you haven't put up jaw, does that mean you will shut up?

It should be noted hat jaw is a prolific poster on Barbi's board. Does anything else have to be said?

Yes, - M.M. likes telling tales..  just like a silly school girl..

& sadly, imagines it is a substitute for a reasonable topic-based discussion..

"Cybermen don't make promises..
Such ideas have no value."

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #423 on: November 24, 2013, 04:47:33 PM »
& sadly, imagines it is a substitute for a reasonable topic-based discussion..

That is hilarious coming from you. keep on jawing jaw.

Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #424 on: November 24, 2013, 04:48:56 PM »
T-A, still hungover, huh?

Give it some more thought,
 & come back with some actual fact-based parameters..

Like Vmax, Vne, climb, dive & zoom speeds, turn radius , roll rate,
fire-power, combat vision, engine management/user friendliness & etc..

For example, from the invasion to VE-day both the P-38 & Tempest were
tasked with tactical operations, & the Tempest bagged every type of LW jet & FW long-nose flying, while the P-38 did not..

Do you think performance attributes might've had something to do with that?

Well, duhh..

Assuming our AH charts are accurate (and they almost always are), the P-38L looks to be about 10mph faster than the Tempest at 25K. At 30K the disparity has grown to roughly 20mph, still in favor of the P-38L. Its comical to note that the Tempest's speed at 30,000ft is not significantly greater than that of the 190A-5 or 109G-2, both 1942 fighters.

Climb rates look to be roughly equal at 16,000ft, but above that, the P-38 has an advantage in climb rate of no less than 500 feet per minute, and is such that at 25,000ft, the P-38L is climbing at a rate almost 1000 feet per minute greater than that of the Tempest. At 30K, the tempest's climb rate has dropped to roughly 750 feet per minute, while the P-38 is still climbing at a rate of ~1600 feet per minute.

In terms of climb rate, the Tempest is actually the inferior of both the Fw 190A-5 and Bf 109G-2 at 30k, both performing about as well as the P-38.


The Hawker Tempest has a shorter range than the P-38L by 560 miles. Or if you wish to look at it this way, the P-38's range was 173% that of the Temest's. In other words, the Tempest would be totally unsuitable to the role of escort fighter, which constituted much of the war.


As for the rest, you seem to be under the impression that the typical WWII fight was like an AH dogfight, which is not true. From what I can find, and what other members have posted in other threads, typical WWII combat much more closely resembled the slash, dive, and run tactics used by pony dweebs in AH. Especially at 30k, where the rarefied atmosphere makes maneuvering more difficult, this would undoubtedly be the norm. In such a fight, the P-38's lower roll rate would not adversely affect it to any significant degree.

Nose mounted weapons means the P-38 suffers no convergence issues, unlike the Tempest. The P-38 also had a superior view over the nose, which eases deflection shooting (most of the shots in WWII ETO).


No idea as to the turn radius at 30k, but again, it would be rather irrelevant.


The P-38 also possesses redundant engines. One hit in the wrong spot, and your tempest is going to be written off as total loss, no matter how hard your pilot "thrashed" his engine. If anything, that would merely exacerbate any combat damage, hastening his forced landing. But a P-38, on the other hand, could theoretically take even a 120mm APFSDS round from an M1 abrams through an engine block and make it back home.


Oh, the P-38 also had significantly greater ordnance carrying capacity than the Tempest, and more importantly, it could distribute that load more usefully than the Tempest's 2 1000lb bombs. In WWII, even 500lb bombs were overkill for many targets. When attacking front lines, the Germans even opted for a larger number of 50kg fragmentation bombs over the larger 250 or 500kg weapons. The biggest issue is that infantry tends to take cover, which shields them from casing fragments, and blast in large measure. Thus 8 50kg bombs dropped in 8 locations will do more damage to entrenched infantry than 2 500lb bombs dropped in 2 different locations.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 04:52:26 PM by Tank-Ace »
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

"Once more unto the breach"

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #425 on: November 24, 2013, 04:56:55 PM »
Well, something constructive  - at last - from T-A..

Tempest Vne was ~100mph faster than the P-38, & firepower double..

& in the actual historical tactical role, < 10kft,
.. the Tempest would absolutely murder the P-38..

Vmax, climb, B & Z, roll & turn, combat vision - the lot..

Here is the actual Tempest data sheet..

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/tempest/tempest-v-ads-sabre-IIb.jpg

& what was it bad boy ace Robin Olds said about the P-38?

Something like..

"I often flew home from Germany in the P-38 on one engine - I always flew home from Germany on one engine  - in the Mustang.."
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 05:10:19 PM by J.A.W. »
"Cybermen don't make promises..
Such ideas have no value."

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #426 on: November 24, 2013, 05:02:46 PM »
Well, something constructive  - at last - from T-A..

Unlike your contributions jaw.

Offline Brooke

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #427 on: November 24, 2013, 05:02:57 PM »
Of an ETO [ inc' Soviets] list of the top ten fighters..
& - based on A2A combat performance attributes - the P-38 might,- just squeak in there - but [very] close to the bottom of the list..

Bottom of what list?  List of best point-defense fighters?  List of best fighter bombers?  List of best long-distance fighters?  As pointed out by pilots who flew various fighters in WWII when asked "which one is best," many of them will reply with "best for what?"  The P-38 is definitely not down near #10 in a list of:
-- long-range escort fighters
-- fighter bombers

For example, the Spitfire is great at point defense.  It is very bad as a long-range escort or as a fighter bomber.  So is the Spitfire good or bad?  It depends on "for what."

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #428 on: November 24, 2013, 05:07:57 PM »
A2A combat ETO late `44, so range aint an issue - for a start..
 [ Soviet fighters were really too light for the A2G gig]..
"Cybermen don't make promises..
Such ideas have no value."

Offline Brooke

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #429 on: November 24, 2013, 05:19:51 PM »
A2A combat ETO late `44, so range aint an issue - for a start..

I think that escort missions were still long range and that range did still very much matter.

Quote
[ Soviet fighters were really too light for the A2G gig]..

So, yes, they weren't nearly as good at it as P-38's, and the P-38 isn't near the bottom of the list for that (which was my point).

Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #430 on: November 24, 2013, 05:26:32 PM »
A2A combat ETO late `44, so range aint an issue - for a start..
 [ Soviet fighters were really too light for the A2G gig]..

So basically you want to look at less than a year of the war, with the Allies facing a much diminished Luftwaffe (and virtually all of its remaining strength concentrated around manufacturing cities, and on the Eastern front) plagued with shortages of all kind, and fielding many more inexperienced pilots?
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

"Once more unto the breach"

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #431 on: November 24, 2013, 05:29:02 PM »
At the climax of the war, with the futuristic jets entering combat..

& the very best the Allies could put up against them.

& P-38s weren't flying escort missions by late `44..

& if you check the actual Tempest data provided, its range,
 for tactical air-superiority ops from forward bases wasn't too shabby..

1-on-1, with pilots of high proficiency, in the authentic historical tactical combat environment in which they were employed, late`44, Tempest vs P-38..

No contest, really ..
.. as was shown by the actual A2A results achieved against the LW..
"Cybermen don't make promises..
Such ideas have no value."

Offline Brooke

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #432 on: November 24, 2013, 05:47:37 PM »
Tempest vs. P-38 at 15k isn't the defining characteristic of whether or not the P-38 was a decent plane as a long-range fighter and escort and as a fighter bomber.

Also, again, even in late 1944, escort missions were long.

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #433 on: November 24, 2013, 06:26:02 PM »
Not for P-38s in the ETO, since they were in the 9th Tactical AF..

So, the mission specific comparison is valid.

  'Cept of course Tempests weren't tasked with that P-38 medium bomber role, since the RAF had Mosquitos for that gig..

& T-A, why were you going on about high alt' performance?

I quote you from your post - #361, this thread ..

"...high altitude performance which is ENTIRELY irrelevant..."

& Naturally, for the drive into the Reich, & from forward bases - the RAF 2nd TAF had the high alt' A2A job covered by the Spitfire XIV, which would kick the P-38's arse upstairs - just as comprehensively as the Tempest does down on the deck..

See..

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-XIV-ads.jpg
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 06:30:45 PM by J.A.W. »
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Such ideas have no value."

Offline Karnak

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #434 on: November 24, 2013, 06:40:59 PM »
& don't forget, the Tempest units were kept busy from June to Sept `44
stopping 800+ V 1 cruise missiles from hammering down on London..

The P-38 didn't have the performance to do that gig either..
Sure it did, it just wasn't tasked for it.

The low altitude performance of the Spitfire LF.Mk IX and the P-38L are quite similar, and the Spitfire LF.Mk IX was one of the fighters tasked with V1 interception.

V1 Interceptors:
Meteor Mk I
Mosquito Mk VI
Mustang Mk III
Mustang Mk IV
P-51B
P-51D
Spitfire LF.Mk IX
Spitfire Mk XIV
Tempest Mk V
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