Author Topic: Best Heavy Fighter  (Read 33257 times)

Offline Brooke

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #255 on: November 20, 2013, 07:13:06 PM »
Wow -- lots of nonsense being spouted about the P-38 here (like "relegated to being a bomber" total falsehood, as if 100 planes out of 10,000 determines anything).

I assume that people who have read a lot about P-38's have covered all of this already, but just in case:

The P-38 wasn't moved out of the ETO because it was a bad fighter but because of several other factors.  One was that there were folks (including some with the ability to determine what was used) who thought that the P-51 was a better choice.  (Note that "P-51 is better" is not the same as "P-38 is bad" -- both can be good, but one can still be better.)  One was because the commanders in North Africa and MTO were clamoring for more P-38's specifically as a critical element to victory, and for more than were able to be supplied solely by new production of P-38's.  One might have been as simple as inadequate cockpit heating in P-38's, which was sometimes a problem at high alts in the ETO.

The P-38 had a very long range, was an extremely sturdy plane (far sturdier than a P-51, regardless of statements here to the contrary), was used extensively in multiple theaters, acquitted itself decently vs. LW and Japanese fighters, and was excellent in ground attack.  Notable achievements:  first US fighter sweep over Berlin, shoot down of Yamamoto, top two leading US aces.

I've talked to many WWII pilots (several of them aces) who flew the P-38 (some in PTO, such as George Chandler; and some in ETO such as Bill Allen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J0lEHyKInw ; some who flew the P-38 and the P-51; some who flew the P-38, P-47, and P-51; one who flew P-38 recon in the PTO, including flights at 40k).  Of the ones who flew the P-38 and P-51, most liked the P-51 better for the role it was mainly used for, but every one of them thought that the P-38 was a great airplane as well.  I don't remember one of them saying that they thought the P-38 was bad and were glad to get out of it into the P-47 or P-51, and they were always asked what they thought of the P-38 vs. the other aircraft they flew.

Good books on the P-38:
The Lockheed P-38 Lightning, by Bodie
America's Hundred Thousand, by Dean (chapter on the P-38)
Top Guns, edited by Joe Foss and Matthew Brennan (chapter written by John Lowell, who flew P-38's and P-51's in the ETO)
Fork-Tailed Devil, by Caiden (I've seen people crab about it, but I liked it)
Fighter Pilot, by Olds
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 07:18:42 PM by Brooke »

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #256 on: November 20, 2013, 07:18:54 PM »
A.A., are you sure they were Mustang IIs?

The U.S. govt insisted in having approval over where its ex-lend-lease stuff went,[not that Stalin complied with that stipulation, naturally] but maybe that didn't apply to those few RAF Allison powered survivors of a long ETO war?

Perhaps they'd been 'cash & carry' items that the Brits were free to dispose of as they liked?

Yeah, the planes are listed as Mustang Mk II's, don't have the serial numbers but I have the FAS number markings.
FAS-401
FAS-403
FAS-404
FAS-405

The only Mustang that was "legally" purchased by El Salvador was the Cavalier Mustang.  The Salvadorans ordered 7 Cavaliers but the US and other countries placed an arms embargo on El Salvador and Honduras, so the Salvadorans only received one Cavalier before the embargo kicked in.  The Salvadorans then sent out agents and were able to procure through shady means, the rest of their Mustangs from private owners and in one case, seize a P-51D-25-NA (44-73273/YS-210P) from a collector living in El Salvador.  

The Mustang Mk IIs were probably from Lend-Lease surplus after the RAF stopped using the Mustangs and then sold into the private sector.  Being 1969, I'm sure there were a lot of surplus RAF Mustangs for sale and/or in private hands.

ack-ack

« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 07:20:34 PM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #257 on: November 20, 2013, 07:30:40 PM »
I'm guessing each of those ~120 D.S. medium bomber P-38 conversions led a Sqd or group of regular P-38s?

& for straight from the horses mouth, the official USAAF report summary on the `38J features some unequivocal terms.."airspeed limitations are low...
caution must be used.....definitely objectionable...cause structural failure''.

I have not seen a USAAF P-51 report containing similar stuff..

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38-67869.htm
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Offline olds442

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #258 on: November 20, 2013, 07:39:49 PM »
It really seems like you're just fishing for "'Murica!!!" answers. More specifically for the Corsair.

"Best air to ground" has nothing to do with air to air combat. Yet not only do you include air to air capabilities,  but 1v1 capabilities in your judgment.


But really, we'll arrive at the same conclusion as your other thread: a competition between the F4U-1C/D, the P-47, and the 190 A/F.
And it seems like you're just trolling or can't read because he clearly sated the FW-190s.... so thats "Murcia" i guess
Also air to air combat for an ATTACK plane is kinda needed given you don't have any other defense.... unless its German i guess because they are uber
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #259 on: November 20, 2013, 07:47:52 PM »
Also, was there some doubt that P-47N's didn't escort B-29's to Japan and go on fighter sweeps over Japan?  That's easily verified.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #260 on: November 20, 2013, 08:07:54 PM »
I'm guessing each of those ~120 D.S. medium bomber P-38 conversions led a Sqd or group of regular P-38s?


Yes.  Usually each squadron in the P-38 groups would have a Droop Snoot and they would then lead a squadron/flight of standard P-38s.  The standard P-38s would then drop on the Droop Snoots command.  There was a device that could be equipped on the standard P-38s that allowed the bombardier on the Droop Snoot to drop bombs for everyone else.  If there were non-visual conditions then instead of a Droop Snoot, a P-38J/L equipped with a AN/APS-15 navigation/attack radar, would then lead the flight.

ack-ack
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 08:12:28 PM by Ack-Ack »
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #261 on: November 20, 2013, 09:23:30 PM »
Good books on the P-38:
Fork-Tailed Devil, by Caiden (I've seen people crab about it, but I liked it)


Oh, Brooke, Brooke, Brooke....

You so did not mean to include that one, please say so...

- oldman

Offline Widewing

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #262 on: November 20, 2013, 10:30:09 PM »
F4U-4 vs Sea Fury?

Well, lets see, going by the figures in the posted links..

S.L. Vmax :303knots vs 402 mph,

S.L. Climb : 3,760ft/min vs 5,050ft/min,

Roll rate : 89'/sec vs 100'/sec

Add a Vne advantage of ~100mph, plus superior pilot vision
& the Brit machine is looking dominant over the hog too..

"Squeal like a pig, boy.."

Note: the Napier Sabre powered Fury went even harder..

Talk about cherry picking data.... You used data for the Sea Fury F 10, 50 built.

How about the FB 11, the common service example, 615 built?
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/Fury/Sea_Fury_Hawker.pdf

How about this data on the F4U-4?
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4u/f4u-4-detail-specification.pdf

How does this compare, F4U-4 vs Sea Fury FB 11?

S.L. Vmax: 377 vs 380
S.L. Climb: 4,360 fpm vs 4,320 fpm
Best Speed: 453 mph @ 26.2k vs 450 mph @ 20k
Roll Rate: 120 dps* vs 100 dps   *Vought data, speed 350 mph IAS

Seriously, your attempt to cherry pick the data and your "squeal like a pig" comment reveal the genuine nature of a troll.
My regards,

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Offline Brooke

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #263 on: November 21, 2013, 12:05:41 AM »

Oh, Brooke, Brooke, Brooke....

You so did not mean to include that one, please say so...

- oldman

Heh!  I knew I'd get some guff on that.  ;)  But I did like the book.  Maybe it isn't perfect, and I read it eons ago when I was but a wet-behind-the-ears WWII enthusiast, so I don't remember many details from it.  What in there do you dislike so much?

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #264 on: November 21, 2013, 06:46:15 AM »
Heh!  I knew I'd get some guff on that.  ;)  But I did like the book.  Maybe it isn't perfect, and I read it eons ago when I was but a wet-behind-the-ears WWII enthusiast, so I don't remember many details from it.  What in there do you dislike so much?


Oy.  Where to begin?  I suppose all the fantasy that Caidin presents as fact would be a good place to start.  The Italian pilot in the captured P-38 being lured to his doom by the B-17 pilot taunting him about his girlfriend.  The dead pilot making a perfect landing in North Africa.  I've repressed others no doubt.

Or possibly his pathetic stretch to make the P-38's record in the 8th AF look good by eliminating losses from this and losses from that so that by the time he's done you wonder why we ever built anything besides the P-38.

Sorry for the hijack.

- oldman

Offline Saxman

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #265 on: November 21, 2013, 06:58:13 AM »

Sorry for the hijack.

- oldman

No problem, JAW's been doing that with his inline engine lovefest for the last half a dozen pages, anyway.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Randy1

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #266 on: November 21, 2013, 07:21:27 AM »
Back to AH's best heavy fighter.  The P38 can get the ords there and put them on target as good or better than any other planes but . . . it is like the cherry on top of a ice-cream sunday, you eat it first.  I have experienced this often. 

If a 51, a 47 and a P38 drops ords on a red's field 3/4's of the red guys will try to take the P38 out first. Sometimes all of them.  In real life that may not have happened but in AH it is a fact of P38 life. 

I wonder sometimes if some of the problem is the shinny metallic reflection that shows a P38L out like a lighted Christmas tree no matter which skin you use.  Since some folks do not download skins, I think I will make a wish to change the default skin on the P38L.  Maybe that would help.

Offline Saxman

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #267 on: November 21, 2013, 08:18:38 AM »

If a 51, a 47 and a P38 drops ords on a red's field 3/4's of the red guys will try to take the P38 out first. Sometimes all of them.  In real life that may not have happened but in AH it is a fact of P38 life. 


Well, there's also the fact the P-38 actually stays around to fight, while the P-51 has already motored home screaming like a little girl the second a red con so much as looks his way.  :D
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #268 on: November 21, 2013, 11:37:04 AM »
Also that P-38's are universally hated due to the bish P-38 raids.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

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Offline Brooke

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #269 on: November 21, 2013, 11:53:25 AM »

Oy.  Where to begin?  I suppose all the fantasy that Caidin presents as fact would be a good place to start.  The Italian pilot in the captured P-38 being lured to his doom by the B-17 pilot taunting him about his girlfriend.  The dead pilot making a perfect landing in North Africa.  I've repressed others no doubt.

Or possibly his pathetic stretch to make the P-38's record in the 8th AF look good by eliminating losses from this and losses from that so that by the time he's done you wonder why we ever built anything besides the P-38.

Sorry for the hijack.

- oldman

It's a good discussion and not a hijack, I don't think, since we are talking about the P-38 in the role of best heavy fighter.

I remember the Italian pilot story.  I don't remember any dead pilot making a perfect landing.  I remember him describing an incident where a plane came apart over the field, and a body came down in a parachute.  Is that the one you mean?  Is there a reference somewhere that lists what Caiden got wrong and gives pointers to references that give the true info, or that gives just a list of what people consider to be wrong in the book?