Author Topic: Best Heavy Fighter  (Read 33204 times)

Offline Brooke

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #345 on: November 22, 2013, 06:24:48 PM »
What calc's do you have for difference in available thrust at [wet] WEP for take off vs mil-spec WEP [dry, no ADI]?

What is the thrust/acceleration time/speed/distance equation?

You don't need that.  See above for a way to calculate the difference.

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #346 on: November 22, 2013, 06:27:48 PM »
Check those USN F8F operating spec' charts again Brooke, Navy pilots knew full well the advantage in IAS provided by their CV steaming into the wind @ 30+ knots & similarly what a stiff headwind on a ground strip - will likewise offer..
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #347 on: November 22, 2013, 06:49:18 PM »
Check those USN F8F operating spec' charts again Brooke, Navy pilots knew full well the advantage in IAS provided by their CV steaming into the wind @ 30+ knots & similarly what a stiff headwind on a ground strip - will likewise offer..

Yes, 3 seconds difference in takeoff time is very important when X seconds means that you are in the air and X+3 means that you are in the water.  Here are a couple carrier takeoffs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dySbhK1vNk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZNbbsvpTRY
If you take a look, and when the plane lifts off, count "one Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi", you will see that the plane is generally past the end of the deck by then.  In these cases, 3 extra seconds added to roll would put them in the drink and is why the CV is putting 30 mph wind over the deck.

3 extra seconds added to a time to climb of about 120 seconds isn't significant, however.

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #348 on: November 22, 2013, 06:57:49 PM »
& add also the extra 10% in take-off power by using the 'wet' cheat..

No wonder they got better figures than the USN 'Standard Characteristics'..

I doubt if that airshow F8F in the video shown climbing out had armour/self-sealing tanks & etc fitted, that mil-spec machines were loaded with - either.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #349 on: November 22, 2013, 07:24:04 PM »
& add also the extra 10% in take-off power by using the 'wet' cheat..

No, the way to account for it is as I posted above.  Difference is time for takeoff roll between WEP and no WEP, which is insignificant.

Quote
I doubt if that airshow F8F in the video shown climbing out had armour/self-sealing tanks & etc fitted, that mil-spec machines were loaded with - either.

Doesn't matter.  Even the P-51 has gear up at 24 seconds.  If you want, assume a standard Bearcat not using WEP will take as long to gear up as the P-51 (likely a huge overestimate) and that a WEP-on standard Bearcat (with armor, ammo, 50% fuel) is like the airshow Bearcat at 14 seconds.  The difference is 10 seconds.  Add 10 seconds to the time to climb to get your estimate of what would happen if the Bearcat didn't use WEP on takeoff roll.  It still is not significant.

Offline Widewing

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #350 on: November 22, 2013, 07:29:51 PM »
Yes, & who signs off on the S.O.P. violation & faces court-martial proceedings if there is a take-off crash?

& Ww, maybe you'd like to go on about 'flimsy' F8F wing tips breaking off & killing pilots..

What calc's do you have for difference in available thrust at [wet] WEP for take off vs mil-spec WEP [dry, no ADI]?

What is the thrust/acceleration time/speed/distance equation?

You've not served in the military, I take it.....
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Brooke

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #351 on: November 22, 2013, 07:56:10 PM »
& add also the extra 10% in take-off power by using the 'wet' cheat..

Well, actually, if you want me to do it that way (which is more work and not as conservative as I've already done):

Thrust is approximately proportional to power, and F = m * a, so 10% more thrust is 10% more acceleration (i.e., a_wep = 1.1 * a_nowep).  (F = m* a is a rough approximation not including drag, but including drag won't matter since the time difference below is already so low as to not matter.)

dv/dt = a, so v = a * t, and t = v / a.  Takeoff and wheels up is determined by when you hit takeoff speed (with distance and time depending on when you reach the appropriate speed).  In other words, t_wheelsup = v_wheelsup / a.

Without wep, t_wheelsupnowep = v_wheelsup / a_nowep.
With wep, t_wheelsupwep = v_wheelsup / a_wep.  

Thus, t_wheelsupnowep / t_wheelsupwep = a_wep / a_nowep = 1.1

We have an airshow Bearcat with t_wheelsup = 14 seconds.  Let's look at both ends of a way to estimate our standard Bearcat.  If the airshow Bearcat is like a standard Bearcat (with armor, ammo, 50% fuel) and no WEP, then t_wheelsupnowep = 14 seconds, and t_wheelsupwep = 14 / 1.1 = 13 seconds.  If the airshow Bearcat is like a standard Bearcat and full WEP, then t_wheelsupwep = 14, and t_wheelsupnowep = 14 * 1.1 = 15 seconds.

So, what is the difference in time between using WEP until wheels up and not using WEP until wheels up?  In one case it is 14 - 13 (1 second), and in the other case it is 15 - 14 (1 second).  In either case, the difference is 1 second.

That is even far less than my huge overestimate of 7 seconds.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 08:00:53 PM by Brooke »

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #352 on: November 22, 2013, 08:00:29 PM »
B, add 10% power [+250hp in the F8F - from ADI use] to any vehicle,
& you will increase acceleration potential.. & if it was only one lousy second,
why would they have bothered with that cheat..

Ww, if you seriously mess with - or crash - most any Gov't vehicle, there is quite likely to be some form of inquiry, with an adverse findings out-come
- that if proven to be  a case of improper operation contrary to regulations - may well result in serious sanctions.. - & like you didn't know that..
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 08:03:54 PM by J.A.W. »
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #353 on: November 22, 2013, 08:02:42 PM »
B, add 10% power [+250hp in the F8F - from ADI use] to any vehicle,
& you will increase acceleration potential.

See above.

Let me reiterate to be clear.  Neither wind nor WEP during takeoff roll matters significantly in the time to climb.

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #354 on: November 22, 2013, 08:06:12 PM »
Take off power/weight ratio & effective AS/lift ratios - are in fact critical - to climb performance, Brooke.

If you start the clock from wheel roll, maybe some measure it from lift off?..

For a recip' heavy fighter that Tempest 6 S.L. Vmax/Vne of 418/540mph is pretty impressive..
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 08:14:12 PM by J.A.W. »
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #355 on: November 22, 2013, 08:17:51 PM »
Take off power/weight ratio & effective AS/lift ratios - are in fact critical - to climb performance, Brooke.

If you start the clock from wheel roll, maybe some may measure it from lift off..


You are confused about what we are talking about.

No one is arguing about WEP causing faster climb.

What we are arguing about is:
Case 1:  A standard Bearcat uses WEP from start to wheels up, then uses WEP from wheels up throughout climb.
Case 2:  A standard Bearcat does not use WEP from start to wheels up, then uses WEP from wheels up throughout climb.

Time to climb we are discussing is given as time from standing stop to 10,000 ft. (i.e., it includes the time from start to wheels up).

You say that Case 1 and Case 2 will result in significantly different times to climb.  I proved that they do not.

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #356 on: November 22, 2013, 08:24:22 PM »
Thanks for making the effort of going through the maths, B.
But what did the empirical USN results show?

Which system ['wet' or dry - WEP roll out] did they use to claim their 'record'?

& if their ADI cheat didn't help, why would they have risked it?
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Such ideas have no value."

Offline Brooke

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #357 on: November 22, 2013, 08:38:58 PM »
Thanks for making the effort of going through the maths, B.

Most welcome! <S>

Quote
But what did the empirical USN results show?

What we already talked about:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,356037.msg4722462.html#msg4722462

Quote
Which system ['wet' or dry - WEP roll out] did they use to claim their 'record'?

Seemingly WEP from start.

Quote
& if their ADI cheat didn't help, why would they have risked it?

I doubt they saw it as a risk or a cheat, and when you are going for records you use everything that you think is acceptable.  Maybe there were other aircraft that they were comparing to that enabled WEP right from the standstill, and they wanted an even comparison.  Maybe they thought that Bearcats would always have that disabled in the field in normal use.  Who knows?

The point is that, if you feel that it is inappropriate, you can figure out what the number would be if they hadn't used it and then have that number as your preferred one instead.

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #358 on: November 22, 2013, 08:55:52 PM »
No, I think we've just about got it covered there, thanks again, B.

But  - given the modifications from mil-spec for airshow purposes..

Would anyone be interested in running a new thread comparing mil-spec
[recip'] aircraft Vmax performance at the Reno race height of ~8kft?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 09:02:02 PM by J.A.W. »
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Offline Old Crow

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #359 on: November 22, 2013, 09:06:47 PM »
Did anyone else notice in reply #321 by J.A.W. in the link for the F-51H (PDF page 3) that structural strength was increased 10% over its immediate predecessor? I've read where the landing gear wasn't as strong as the P-51D which would have been a problem in Korea, but to call the P-51H frail and less durable than a P-51D is a little over the top and probably not a reason it wasn't used in Korea at least according to the link: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/F-51H_Mustang_SAC_-_22_March_1949.pdf