Flaps usage in real combat

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Hello.
Recently I learned a strange thing - P-40 pilots were forbidden to use flaps with guns switch turned on. http://www.avialogs.com/viewer/avialogs-documentviewer.php?id=3133 page 23 paragraph d.
So they didn't? And what about other plane's pilots? F.e. in interview of Ivan Ivanovich Kozhemyako, hero of 107 GIAP, he sayed that they used flaps when fighting bombers(?) but never with fighters.

What do you know or think?

[Saxman]

I know that the F4U and F6F both had flaps that were controlled by springs, so if set "down" (no more than two notches, though), they would blow back up above a certain airspeed, and drop again automatically as airspeed decreased, and I think there's been stories posted where Corsair and Hellcat pilots utilized this (and I keep arguing to add this functionality). The N1K2 also had its fully automated flaps.

The P-51 and P-47s also had flaps with a "maneuver" setting.

The problem is that it wouldn't have been possible to work flaps the way we can in the game with our HOTAS controls. Look at the Corsair's cockpit, and it's physically impossible to fly the plane, manage the throttle AND work the flaps up and down all at once.

[morfiend]

 With the exception of a few planes that had "combat flaps", I would think that most combat took place well above the speeds for flap deployment. Most air to air combat involved a bounce and an escape,you just didn't see the prolonged turn fights that we have in AH.

  Most combat was hit and run type of engagements and likely the plane shot down nevr even saw the enemy who shot him. I'm not saying there were no turn fights but I don't think many evolved into a tight turn fight at 100 ft above the ground like we see in AH.


   YMMV.


    

[GScholz]

Saxman, pilots didn't glue their left hands to the throttle. Some of these aircraft needed a lot of work in the cockpit adjusting trim, prop, mixture etc., especially in Russian fighters. So the pilot's left hand would be quite busy in a fight. Ze Germans had it the easiest in their highly automated 109/190s.

[colmbo]

Try this link to see encounter reports talking about flap usage in the P-51.  You'll have to scroll down the page a ways.

Gscholtz, why would you need to adjust the mixture or prop once in a fight?  You would already have it in auto-rich or rich for max power, prop would be high RPM for max power, no need to mess with them until the fights over.

Saxman makes a good point about the advantage our HOTAS systems give us in a fight.  In some cases it might not be possible to use flaps or trim ie; Mustang flap control is low left side of seat at back of left side console...if you're turned to the right watching the bogey it would be tuff to reach the flap handle.

[Guppy35]

My favorite example of flaps use.  A P38 driver.

Lt. Royal Madden 370th FG, July 31, 1944

“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left. I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me. I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.

We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet. This boy was good and he had me plenty worried as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection. I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst. There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off. He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.

Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home. Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped. As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”

[GScholz]

Colombo, not all allied rides had automatic mixture controls, and the workload in Russian aircraft was tremendous. When you engage WEP it's just a push of the button in AH, but in real life it was in many cases a much more complicated task of setting mixture and RPM controls, often according to altitude as well. Some early war fighters didn't even have constant speed props or automatic cooling systems. The 109 and 190 were special however, as they were completely HOTAS except for trim in the 109. The 190 was unique in that it didn't need any change of trim during combat maneuvers, even in dives.

Here a Yak-9 cockpit. Look at that throttle quadrant.





Fw 190 for comparison. Single lever regulating throttle, RPM and mixture via an electro-mechanical computer. Also electric push-button controls for flaps and trim located nearby.










As for using flaps in combat:

Me 109 F/G:
"- Did pilots like the slats on the wings of the 109?
Yes, pilots did like them, since it allowed them better positions in dogfights along with using the flaps. These slats would also deploy slightly when the a/c was reaching stall at higher altitudes showing the pilot how close they were to stalling.....this was also useful when you were drunk "
- Franz Stigler, German fighter ace. 28 victories.

[Ack-Ack]

The problem is that it wouldn't have been possible to work flaps the way we can in the game with our HOTAS controls. Look at the Corsair's cockpit, and it's physically impossible to fly the plane, manage the throttle AND work the flaps up and down all at once.

It is most definitely an advantage that we enjoy with our HOTAS controllers.  I also have a CH Virtual Pilot Pro and a Throttle Quadrant that once in a blue moon hook up to fly the P-38 and on the quadrant I have one of the levers programmed for flaps.  It is much more cumbersome using the flaps with this controller configuration, especially in a turn fight when I'm trying to gain a lead on the bandit than it is with my regular CH HOTAS setup.

ack-ack

[SmokinLoon]

It is too bad some of this cant be modeled in to the planes.  I know there is a line between game play and realism that needs to be drawn, but in certain situations it would be nice for certain aircraft to have benefits of their advanced engineering modeled. 

[PFactorDave]

Don't forget that for a pilot, speed is life.  And since there is no easy re-up in a new plane in a real war...  I expect that pilots would avoid flap speeds like the plague whenever possible.

We don't really die here, so we take all kinds of really foolish chances.

[colmbo]

Colombo, not all allied rides had automatic mixture controls, and the workload in Russian aircraft was tremendous. When you engage WEP it's just a push of the button in AH, but in real life it was in many cases a much more complicated task of setting mixture and RPM controls, often according to altitude as well. Some early war fighters didn't even have constant speed props or automatic cooling systems. The 109 and 190 were special however, as they were completely HOTAS except for trim in the 109. The 190 was unique in that it didn't need any change of trim during combat maneuvers, even in dives.

I can't think of anything that wouldn't have been either a pressure carb, I really don't think mixture is going to be a problem..especially on the high performance engines being used in any of the WWII fighters.  As for a need to adjust mixture or prop to engage WEP...you would already have the prop and mixture set for high power so there would be no need to adjust either, just push the throttle up and engage any injection system if used/needed.

Mustang pretty much the same way regarding trim, flew it from 80ias to 400ias without adjusting trim...not saying there wasn't some stick force.

Here a Yak-9 cockpit. Look at that throttle quadrant.

Yep, it has a throttle, all you need once set for the fight.

[colmbo]

Don't forget that for a pilot, speed is life.  And since there is no easy re-up in a new plane in a real war...  I expect that pilots would avoid flap speeds like the plague whenever possible.

We don't really die here, so we take all kinds of really foolish chances.

One would think but read those Mustang encounter reports.  Guys report using "full flaps"  "turning with 109 at 130ias"  etc, etc.  Pretty interesting reading  from the guys there WERE there, DOING that.

[GScholz]

I can't think of anything that wouldn't have been either a pressure carb, I really don't think mixture is going to be a problem..especially on the high performance engines being used in any of the WWII fighters.  As for a need to adjust mixture or prop to engage WEP...you would already have the prop and mixture set for high power so there would be no need to adjust either, just push the throttle up and engage any injection system if used/needed.

Mustang pretty much the same way regarding trim, flew it from 80ias to 400ias without adjusting trim...not saying there wasn't some stick force.

Yep, it has a throttle, all you need once set for the fight.

In a Pony you'd have to change RPM to 3000 for WEP, and back to 2700 for MIL. In the Yak you'd in addition have to manually adjust radiator flaps, oil cooler flaps, supercharger speeds, and mixture. Virtually the only automation was a constant speed prop.

[FLS]

In a Pony you'd have to change RPM to 3000 for WEP, and back to 2700 for MIL. In the Yak you'd in addition have to manually adjust radiator flaps, oil cooler flaps, supercharger speeds, and mixture. Virtually the only automation was a constant speed prop.

Military power is also 3000 RPM. You're probably thinking of max continuous power.

[WWhiskey]

I'd have to dig a bit but some of may know the P-51 story of round and round the slag pile, slowing more and more,, I believe two notches of flaps ended up keeping the pony stable for the kill