Author Topic: Flaps usage in real combat  (Read 23103 times)

Offline Drano

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Re: Flaps usage in real combat
« Reply #105 on: December 05, 2013, 07:28:32 AM »
I would bet it was the same in real life,, trim was important for top speed but flight control input during hard maneuvers would probably not be effected enough to mess with,, especially if the pilot was busy trying to fight for his life!

This. That's what the actual control surfaces are for. The only thing where it'd mess you up here is with CT constantly changing due to your speed. Getting slow it pushes the nose up and you're fighting the stick down, etc. No CT in RL tho. I just use CT as a sort of "quick trim" toggling it on and then off at a given speed to sort of center the controls. But generally I like a touch of nose down.
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Offline Brent Haliday

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Re: Flaps usage in real combat
« Reply #106 on: December 07, 2013, 12:32:32 PM »
The Memorandum AAF Report of 6 December 1943 describes the use of the maneuver flap setting of a captured 190 in mock combat, addressing your concerns about using the flaps to stave off a stall.  It does not note deployment speeds just some stall numbers but  clearly the Allies believed that flaps could be used for maneuver assistance even if the corresponding POH does not specifically spell it out. They also correctly identify the setting as "Maneuver" not landing. 

article may be found at;

www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o rg



Offline Brooke

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Re: Flaps usage in real combat
« Reply #107 on: December 07, 2013, 04:24:23 PM »
The Memorandum AAF Report of 6 December 1943 describes the use of the maneuver flap setting of a captured 190 in mock combat, addressing your concerns about using the flaps to stave off a stall.  It does not note deployment speeds just some stall numbers but  clearly the Allies believed that flaps could be used for maneuver assistance even if the corresponding POH does not specifically spell it out. They also correctly identify the setting as "Maneuver" not landing. 

article may be found at;

www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o rg

That sounds good, and thanks for posting the reference.

I don't think that anyone is disputing that FW 190's can use flaps like any other plane in that regard.

The argument is about at what speed the flaps can be first deployed to that setting.  Some think (you aren't the only one) that min deployment speed for that first notch of FW 190 flaps is too high.

I have no idea, myself, but my suspicion is that HTC bases such things on data from somewhere.

Offline bozon

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Re: Flaps usage in real combat
« Reply #108 on: December 07, 2013, 05:34:25 PM »
I have no idea, myself, but my suspicion is that HTC bases such things on data from somewhere.
Pilot notes in most cases.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Brent Haliday

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Re: Flaps usage in real combat
« Reply #109 on: December 07, 2013, 06:39:30 PM »
Pilot notes in most cases.

Pilot experience would place the flap deployment speeds well above the POH and the speeds in AH.  Lots of accounts of high speed flap usage in all kinds of aircraft, especially fighters, in ww2.  No acounts of flap overspeed damage that I have seen though. (anybody else yet?)  So I must assume HTC finds it's data elsewhere.  

That sounds good, and thanks for posting the reference.

I don't think that anyone is disputing that FW 190's can use flaps like any other plane in that regard.

The argument is about at what speed the flaps can be first deployed to that setting.  Some think (you aren't the only one) that min deployment speed for that first notch of FW 190 flaps is too high.

I have no idea, myself, but my suspicion is that HTC bases such things on data from somewhere.

FYI I believe that FDS are too slow in all the aircraft to be real world accurate, especially in the aircraft where the low deflection safe deployment speeds are not spelled out someplace.  However that test does state that they were successfully used to reduce maneuver stall speed at 2 g from 180 to 140 so from that report we know the allied test pilots were comfortable to drop 10 degrees some what above 180 on an irreplaceable airframe. (captured and test worthy) An aircraft which also had, for them at least, the maneuver power on stall described as being abrupt, with little warning, so a reasonable thinking researcher would also conclude that the flaps were probably deployed comfortably above 180 so as not to surprise them with a stall before they were out.  
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 06:45:34 PM by Brent Haliday »

Offline Brooke

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Re: Flaps usage in real combat
« Reply #110 on: December 07, 2013, 10:27:28 PM »
Pilot experience would place the flap deployment speeds well above the POH and the speeds in AH.  Lots of accounts of high speed flap usage in all kinds of aircraft, especially fighters, in ww2.  No acounts of flap overspeed damage that I have seen though. (anybody else yet?)  So I must assume HTC finds it's data elsewhere.  

No accounts posted here of anything other than US planes deploying flaps at higher speeds that I've seen.

Quote
FYI I believe that FDS are too slow in all the aircraft to be real world accurate, especially in the aircraft where the low deflection safe deployment speeds are not spelled out someplace.  However that test does state that they were successfully used to reduce maneuver stall speed at 2 g from 180 to 140 so from that report we know the allied test pilots were comfortable to drop 10 degrees some what above 180 on an irreplaceable airframe. (captured and test worthy) An aircraft which also had, for them at least, the maneuver power on stall described as being abrupt, with little warning, so a reasonable thinking researcher would also conclude that the flaps were probably deployed comfortably above 180 so as not to surprise them with a stall before they were out.  

Then what was said doesn't give deployment at anything over 140 mph.  The rest is you making your own suppositions.

By the way, do you know what speed the FW 190A-8 deploys flaps in AH?  180 mph.

Offline Brent Haliday

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Re: Flaps usage in real combat
« Reply #111 on: December 07, 2013, 11:00:00 PM »
No accounts posted here of anything other than US planes deploying flaps at higher speeds that I've seen.

Then what was said doesn't give deployment at anything over 140 mph.  The rest is you making your own suppositions.

By the way, do you know what speed the FW 190A-8 deploys flaps in AH?  180 mph.

Pretty sure there are lots of accounts posted of other types using flaps at higher speeds and to close turns, and solve angles by pilots in planes from everywhere.  Maybe you should look around again.

You are mistaken about the report as well, in the report the numbers are for stall speeds not deployment speeds.
Point was that they used the flaps to delay the stall.  

Now I am Pretty sure for the flaps to keep you from staling at 180 they need to be out already.
That means that the process of deploying the 10 degree maneuver setting on the flaps must have started above 180.
Probably well above 180 so the pilots were comfortable that the stall would not take them by surprise before they could deploy the flaps before the airspeed dipped to or below 180 in order to delay the stall down to 140.  

Hope you followed that as someone else will need to make it more simple for you if you were not able get it,
as that is pretty much as simple as I feel like making it for you right now.

The in game 180 number is the stall speed, and that is as I recall your issue with the 190 and a20,
stalling before the ability to use flaps to counter the stall.

So you really should make an effort to understand that report because I have just posted the data you need to present to solve or at least 1/2 solve your stated problem in the game with those two FMs, assuming HTC in interested.  your welcome btw.

Lots of stuff there about not needing trims much either btw.  Still no overspeed flap damage to report ?

« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 11:04:39 PM by Brent Haliday »

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Flaps usage in real combat
« Reply #112 on: December 07, 2013, 11:01:42 PM »
No accounts posted here of anything other than US planes deploying flaps at higher speeds that I've seen.


From JG 26 - Top Guns of the Luftwaffe, by Donald L. Caldwell (Ivy Books, New York 1991), ISBN 0-8041-1050-6 (First Ballentine Edition, June 1993), at page 276:

[The following occurred on the afternoon of September 17, 1944 - the first day of Operation Market-Garden]:

The Third Gruppe [of JG26] also fought a battle with Mustangs, with ruinous consequences for itself.  In mid-afternoon, Major Mietusch assembled about fifteen Bf 109s of his scattered command and headed for the landing zones, climbing all the way.  The weather had taken a turn for the worse, and there was a continuous layer of thin cloud at 15,000 feet.  The Germans climbed through it, and then, while above the Dutch-German border, Mietusch spotted a squadron of P-51s below them.  He radioed, “Otter Mietusch, I am attacking!” and dove through the cloud.  His first burst of fire destroyed the Number 4 plane of the trailing cover flight.  Oblt. Schild hit the Number 2 Mustang’s drop tank, and it dove away trailing a solid sheet of flame.  The events of the next few minutes are best stated in the words of the leader of that P-51 flight, Lt. William Beyer of the 361st Fighter Group’s 376th Squadron:

*          *          *

I was the flight leader at the tail end of the squadron.  We had flown back and forth between checkpoints for a couple of hours.  My wingmen apparently got tired of looking around for enemy aircraft.  Only by the grace of God did I happen to look behind us at that particular moment, because in no more than a couple of seconds the enemy would have shot the whole flight down.

I saw about fifteen German fighters closing fast with all their guns firing.  I immediately broke 180 degrees and called out the enemy attack.  My Number 4 man went down in flames, and my wingman got hit and spun out.  I headed straight back into the German fighters and went through the whole group, just about in the center of them.  We were separated by only a few feet...

I immediately made another 180-degree turn, picked out one of them, and started to chase it.  The rest of the fighters zoomed back up into the clouds and disappeared.  We made many violent high-G maneuvers with wide open throttle.  When I started to close and fire, I noticed that his plane seemed to have stopped in the air.  I had to decide whether to shoot and run, or to try to stop my plane.  I cut throttle, lowered flaps, and dropped my wheels - I still kept closing.  I had to fishtail and do flat weaves to stay behind him.  This maneuver was repeated three times, and on one occasion I almost cut his tail off, we were so close...

Then we started into steep dives.  The last one was at around 1,000 feet with flaps down.  This last maneuver was deadly and nerve-racking.  He went straight down toward the ground, hoping I couldn’t pull out.  If I pulled out early, he could have come in behind me, so I stayed with him.  If we had had our wheels down when we pulled out, we would have been on the ground.

It was after this pullout that I finally was able to get my sights lined up and fire at him.  I must have hit him with the first burst, because he kept turning and went into the ground and broke up.  Knowing the caliber of this German pilot, I am sure that if I had taken the time to get off some shots when he was slowing down he could have possibly shot me down or made a getaway.  My other combat victories were not nearly as spectacular as this one, and it is with this in mind that I can recall it so vividly.

*          *          *

Lt Beyer’s victim was Klaus Mietusch.  Mietusch was one of the most fascinating individuals in the Geschwader’s history.  He was a career officer, had joined the Geschwader in 1938, and was its senior pilot in length of service when he died at age twenty-five.  His early combat career was marked by a seemingly endless series of failures and frustrations.  A member of the successful 7th Staffel under Muencheberg, he did not come into his own until he succeeded to the command and led it on detached assignment in Russia in 1943.  He was the opposite of the typical extroverted, self-confident fighter pilot.  He compensated for what he believed to be his lack of ability by an act of will.  According to Priller, Mietusch’s combat motto was, “Bore in, until the enemy is as large as a barn door in your sights.”  Again quoting Priller, duty as Mietusch’s wingman was an “unforgettable experience.”  Mietusch was shot down ten times and was wounded at least four times.  He was said never to have turned down a mission, and he had logged an incredible 452 combat sorties at the time of his death.  His seventy-two victories brought the award of the Oak Leaves to his Knights’s Cross, two months after his death.

Offline Brooke

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Re: Flaps usage in real combat
« Reply #113 on: December 08, 2013, 12:47:32 AM »
Pretty sure there are lots of accounts posted of other types using flaps at higher speeds and to close turns, and solve angles by pilots in planes from everywhere.  Maybe you should look around again.

I think the higher speed deployment examples here were all US examples.  Feel free to post a link to a previous post in this topic if I've overlooked it.

Quote
You are mistaken about the report as well, in the report the numbers are for stall speeds not deployment speeds.
Point was that they used the flaps to delay the stall.  

Now I am Pretty sure for the flaps to keep you from staling at 180 they need to be out already.
That means that the process of deploying the 10 degree maneuver setting on the flaps must have started above 180.
Probably well above 180 so the pilots were comfortable that the stall would not take them by surprise before they could deploy the flaps before the airspeed dipped to or below 180 in order to delay the stall down to 140.  

Here is a paraphrase of what you posted about the test:  to pull 2 g's without stalling needs 180 mph; with flaps, 2g's needs 140 mph.   That can mean that you fly around without flaps and test what speed you need to pull 2 g's.  Then you fly around with flaps (deployed at whatever speed -- you could start at 90 mph if you want) and test what speed you need for 2 g's.  The statement "to pull 2 g's without stalling needs 180 mph; with flaps, 2g's needs 140 mph" does not say "I flew around in mock combat starting at 300 mph down to 180 mph and noticed that below that I couldn't still pull 2 g's, and sped back up and popped some flaps at 250 mph and flew around some and slowed down to 140 mph and found that was the slowest I could go and still pull 2 g's."

Quote
Hope you followed that as someone else will need to make it more simple for you if you were not able get it,
as that is pretty much as simple as I feel like making it for you right now.

Thanks. I only can get as far as things like this:
http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/aces_high/stallSpeedMath/turningMath.html

Quote
The in game 180 number is the stall speed, and that is as I recall your issue with the 190 and a20,
stalling before the ability to use flaps to counter the stall.

So you really should make an effort to understand that report because I have just posted the data you need to present to solve or at least 1/2 solve your stated problem in the game with those two FMs, assuming HTC in interested.  your welcome btw.

I don't have any issue or problem with them.  I want them to be modeled at whatever the real-world data says, whatever that happens to be, which is what I suspect the case to be right now (i.e., no need for any changes).  My point was that the 190 and a20 are the only planes I know of where a higher flap-deployment speed would matter, not that I have an issue or problem with it.  This was in response to you continuing on about the 109 having too low a flap-deployment speed -- my statement being that it doesn't matter on the 109 if flap-deployment speed is higher.

Here's what we have been talking about.

First, you posed that flaps don't work correctly in AH, which is wrong.

Next you posted that flap-deployment speeds in AH are too high, which I suspect is wrong (because HTC tends to set models based on data, but I have no data on it myself) but, even if it weren't, it matters in only a couple of cases (190 being one).

So, we talked about the 190, and you keep posting things that don't say what the flap-deployment speed is and telling us that it implies X, when it only your surmising that implies X.

Offline FLS

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Re: Flaps usage in real combat
« Reply #114 on: December 08, 2013, 02:16:53 AM »

Now I am Pretty sure for the flaps to keep you from staling at 180 they need to be out already...


That depends on your radial G. It's not a given, so your point isn't made.

Offline earl1937

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Re: Flaps usage in real combat
« Reply #115 on: December 08, 2013, 05:32:10 AM »
Hello.
Recently I learned a strange thing - P-40 pilots were forbidden to use flaps with guns switch turned on. http://www.avialogs.com/viewer/avialogs-documentviewer.php?id=3133 page 23 paragraph d.
So they didn't? And what about other plane's pilots? F.e. in interview of Ivan Ivanovich Kozhemyako, hero of 107 GIAP, he sayed that they used flaps when fighting bombers(?) but never with fighters.

What do you know or think?
:airplane: Pretty interesting discussion on flaps! A couple of quick points, #1- there are four types of flaps, Plain or hinged, (like on the P-51), split flaps, (such as on a B-17), fowler flaps, ( such as those on a B-29), slotted flaps, (such as those on a storch). #2- Flaps are on aircraft for two purposes, A- reduce stalling speed by changing the camber of the wing, such as on the B-29, and B- to change the angle of attack of the wing as it pertains to attitude of the aircraft relative to the on coming air, basically to allow the pilot to turn the aircraft quicker due to the AOA of wing, while using flaps, and to reduce stalling speed for safer landings!
Flap extention speeds, as set by Hi Tech in this game, I am sure were established by consulting the POH of each aircraft, as the design engineers or test pilots set the VFe of each aircraft flying today with flaps. Most, if not all aircraft in real life, can extent flaps above the VFe, but can have dire results if exceeded to much above VFe.
It would be interesting to see a stat on turn radius with flaps extended or retracted for each aircraft in this game, but that would be a lot of trouble to produce, I guess.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 05:33:44 AM by earl1937 »
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline bozon

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Re: Flaps usage in real combat
« Reply #116 on: December 08, 2013, 06:17:51 AM »
The in game 180 number is the stall speed, and that is as I recall your issue with the 190 and a20,
stalling before the ability to use flaps to counter the stall.
180 mph is most certainly NOT the stall speed in AH. Even the best climb speed is slightly lower than 180.

Pilot experience would place the flap deployment speeds well above the POH and the speeds in AH.  Lots of accounts of high speed flap usage in all kinds of aircraft, especially fighters, in ww2.  No acounts of flap overspeed damage that I have seen though. (anybody else yet?)  So I must assume HTC finds it's data elsewhere. 
Pilot notes are not pilot stories. These are the operational instructions to the pilot in the form of a booklet.

HTC enforces the operational instructions to the pilots because there is practically zero data on flap durability and how they will function (mechanically) outside the intended speed range. If not adopting the pilot notes, HTC will have to invent some rules for flap damage that are pure fantasy and speculation. The easiest and most logical solution is to enforce the instructions to the pilots even if a pilot could break these "rules". Somewhat similar is the rule for WEP limit - pilot notes say "dont use this setting for more than 5 minutes" and we get a 5 minute WEP limits even though pilots often exceeded that limit with no ill effects. NO do not start a discussion on HTC WEP modeling, that is an entirely different subject. I mentioned it only regarding to the choice of modeling operational instructions instead of mechanical limits.


Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Brent Haliday

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Re: Flaps usage in real combat
« Reply #117 on: December 08, 2013, 07:14:27 AM »
Speed does not matter, it is the forces that matter. It is impossible to match the forces at 10 degrees deployment that you get at 60 degrees of deployment with the power and speed available to these aircraft.

That is why you can not find any reports of flap overspeed damage incidents.  There are no POH speed warnings for the low deflection flaps in most planes because there was no danger of damage from wind forces.  It is a control surface on a fighter warplane in ww2 they are quite durable.

However you are the one making the presumptions about how they went about the test.  Presuming they flew around slow in order to drop their flaps before they sped up to stall speed at 2 g in a combat capability evaluation, that is quite an presumption.  Speed is life being what it is and all.  I really do think you have trouble understanding what people were doing, and why.

Oh and bonzon POH stands for pilot operating handbook, you know like the ones that come with a WRX STI that probably says noting at all about throttle, brake, or hand break steering.  Pretty important stuff if you intend to get the best from it.

Offline bozon

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Re: Flaps usage in real combat
« Reply #118 on: December 08, 2013, 07:52:34 AM »
Oh and bonzon POH stands for pilot operating handbook, you know like the ones that come with a WRX STI that probably says noting at all about throttle, brake, or hand break steering.  Pretty important stuff if you intend to get the best from it.
and I thought POH had something to do with OH ions. Silly me. Who is this bonzon guy? he sounds awesome!

Quote
It is a control surface on a fighter warplane in ww2 they are quite durable.
How durable is "quite"?


Now excuse me while I google "WRX STI".
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Brent Haliday

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Re: Flaps usage in real combat
« Reply #119 on: December 08, 2013, 10:35:54 AM »
and I thought POH had something to do with OH ions. Silly me. Who is this bonzon guy? he sounds awesome!
How durable is "quite"?


Now excuse me while I google "WRX STI".

Well sorry for the confusion since POH had been in my posts for a while now as the suspected source of htc's data.  

It is a car, popular for racing and rally racing, and I realize the term then would be operators manual, and not POH.  However it was a spin off comment from my earlier comparison.

P.s. sorry about the miss spell earlier mostly doing this from mobile devices while in transit so that will happen.
My Apologies.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 10:49:10 AM by Brent Haliday »