Author Topic: B-29 aileron governors  (Read 936 times)

Offline DaveBB

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B-29 aileron governors
« on: November 28, 2013, 10:27:45 AM »
I've noticed at low speeds in the B-29, the ailerons will not fully deflect.  In fact, the roll rate is severely governed.  Why is this?  What are the speed limitations of it?  And why does the B-29 shed its ailerons and elevators at 375mph?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 10:33:25 AM by DaveBB »
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Offline olds442

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Re: B-29 aileron governors
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2013, 12:09:16 PM »
Because thats how they where in real life....

Ask Earl1937 he actually flew the things, I could be wrong.
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Offline earl1937

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Re: B-29 aileron governors
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2013, 02:05:52 PM »
Because thats how they where in real life....

Ask Earl1937 he actually flew the things, I could be wrong.
:airplane: The ailerons had a 40 degree deflection when in the up position and a 30 degree down deflection when the yoke was turned to its maximum. In a turn, the 29 did indeed have a tencidy to over bank unless you held a little opposite aileron in the opposite direction and under 180 IAS, you must use rudder to correct back to a level position. Other than that, it was a aileron only aircraft when making standard rate turns. The reason for that was the large vertical stab and rudder which was very sensitive during turns. The aircraft in the game has a tencity to overbank and so there fore you must be concous of your bank angles at different airspeeds.
The flaps are over modeled as when you spawn out on the runway, it automatically gives you 50% flaps down for take off. According to Boeing, anything over 17 Degrees of flaps creates more drag than lift, so even at 128,00 lbs, we only used 15 degrees of flaps. Link for watching "Fifi" taking off and you will see that the flaps are barely visiable during takeoff. Now FiFi is no where loaded like we were, but the point is, in this game, you are better off at 0 degrees of flaps and even at a medium field, you will have about a 1,000 foot of runway left when you break ground. http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=b29+aircraft+taking+off&FORM=VIRE7#view=detail&mid=F1943A44F5ABD4645B03F1943A44F5ABD4645B03

While there is no argument about the 29 lifting off the runway in this game, with full flaps, the problem comes when you start rasising flaps, it has a bad sink rate when rasising the flaps, because you can't "milk" up the flaps. In this game, I recommend no flap take offs wep ingaged as soon as you get to full power, and in options, "auto take off" be enabled to at least a 1,000 feet agl. The reason for that is when you disengage auto pilot to make a turn, the nose will immediaty drop down, because you have no trim wheel for correction when starting the turn. You of course can use back pressure on the stick to compensate for the lack of trim, but again, you must concous of how steep you intend to bank because the steeper the turn, the more back pressure you are going to have to use and as you do that, you will find your air speed decaying quickly. I recommend only "standard rate" turns at anytime in the 29 in this game as it is much easier to maintain air speed in any flight confg. A standard rate is 3 degrees per second of turn and the instrument they used in this game 29, you bank until the vertical needle on the turn and bank indicator is "laying" beside the center object on the instrument. A turn and bank in most aircraft during the 50's and later, had two little "dog house" either side of the centered position and when the vertical needle was on one of those "dog houses", that was the indication that you are turning at a rate of 3 degrees per second.
FYI about the Lancaster in this game. The turn and bank indicator has a different indication than American aircraft. it is a 2 in 1 instrument, but you have a option either a 2,3,4,5 and 6 degrees of rate of turn. I prefere the 3 degrees of turn indicator because it is easier to compute in my head how long to complete a 180 degree or 360 degree turn, one minute to complete a 180 degree turn and 2 minutes to complete a 360 degree turn.
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Offline DaveBB

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Re: B-29 aileron governors
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2013, 05:55:21 PM »
So Earl, on the real B-29, turns under 180 kias resulted in needing lots of rudder input to keep the aircraft coordinated?

I'm still trying to figure out why there is an artificial aileron governor on the Aces High B-29 that wont let the ailerons fully deflect until around 180-200mph.
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Offline earl1937

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Re: B-29 aileron governors
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2013, 06:44:18 PM »
So Earl, on the real B-29, turns under 180 kias resulted in needing lots of rudder input to keep the aircraft coordinated?

I'm still trying to figure out why there is an artificial aileron governor on the Aces High B-29 that wont let the ailerons fully deflect until around 180-200mph.
:airplane: Have no idea, but we did have a limiter on aileron travel at high speed. I don't ever remember having a problem with aileron travel, but we flew it by the book and I can't remember all the fine details.
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Offline colmbo

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Re: B-29 aileron governors
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2013, 06:53:28 PM »


I'm still trying to figure out why there is an artificial aileron governor on the Aces High B-29 that wont let the ailerons fully deflect until around 180-200mph.

That is a "game" thing.  It is how the game limits control effectiveness since we aren't actually flying an airfoil through a sea of air.  You'll see the same thing in any of the AH aircraft as speed increases the amount of aileron deflection decreases.  This simulates the lack of ability to use full deflection due to control stick force at higher speeds....applies to rudder and aileron also.

IMO the B-29 in AH doesn't right at low speed.  Simply making a turn you can get into a situation where the flight control may not recover you to normal flight.  I really have to wonder if the R/L B-29 had that issue.

I can easily see how it would have a poor roll rate.  Boeings other bomber, the B-17, certainly has a low rate of roll.
Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline DaveBB

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Re: B-29 aileron governors
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2013, 08:19:22 PM »
I'll reiterate one more time.  From a speed range of 100-200mph, the aileron deflection is severely restricted in the B-29.  Below 100, or above 200mph, the controls unlock and you can get full deflection.

Note: I just did some testing. The range of severely restricted movement is 150mph-200mph.  What is going on here?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 08:23:28 PM by DaveBB »
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Offline ReVo

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Re: B-29 aileron governors
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2013, 01:26:41 AM »
It's not like it makes the aircraft impossible to fly... It's a B-29 not a Runstang..
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Offline earl1937

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Re: B-29 aileron governors
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2013, 05:10:55 AM »
That is a "game" thing.  It is how the game limits control effectiveness since we aren't actually flying an airfoil through a sea of air.  You'll see the same thing in any of the AH aircraft as speed increases the amount of aileron deflection decreases.  This simulates the lack of ability to use full deflection due to control stick force at higher speeds....applies to rudder and aileron also.

IMO the B-29 in AH doesn't right at low speed.  Simply making a turn you can get into a situation where the flight control may not recover you to normal flight.  I really have to wonder if the R/L B-29 had that issue.

I can easily see how it would have a poor roll rate.  Boeing's other bomber, the B-17, certainly has a low rate of roll.
:airplane: During "squadron standboard check flights", a 45 degree bank, 250 knots IAS was required part of the ride, with plus or minus 50 feet limits on altitude and plus or minus 10 knots on airspeed, and anything under 250 kits IAS, we were restricted to 30 degrees of bank and anything below 200 kits was restricted to 10 degrees of bank. Been racking my brain trying to remember some of those numbers which were required for safe flight in the 29, but these numbers stick out in my memory. There were other speed restrictions based on degrees of flaps, but can't remember those, except the 10 degrees of bank. You being a "heavy iron" pilot your self, understand that the angle of bank is dictated by  the T&B indicator if you are maintaining a 3 degree rate of turn, it will change with the different airspeeds. The standard approach speeds which we used on most flights were 180IAS approaching final approach, 150IAS when locked on final approach and 115 knots over the fence. About 10 knots added for each of those figures when flying IFR.
My recommendation is that anyone who intends to fly the B-29 in this game is to learn how to make "standard rate turns", that way, they will never get in trouble. I saw a B-29 pilot crash in this game about a week ago, because he missed his approach and decided to go around. If you decide to go around in this game, add full power and wep first, raise gear second then milk flaps 25 degrees at a time until reaching at least 150IAS, then continue to raise flaps to 0, then start your climb back to pattern altitude.This pilot who crashed, added power, then started raising flaps with the gear down and settled back into the ground, hit a gun emplacement, cartwheeled and a crash resulted.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2013, 05:12:31 AM by earl1937 »
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline colmbo

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Re: B-29 aileron governors
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2013, 11:21:16 AM »
ET do you remember why your were restricted in angle of bank at lower speeds?  Was the overbanking so strong that it was a problem?
Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline DaveBB

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Re: B-29 aileron governors
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2013, 03:40:48 PM »
Great information Earl.  Do you remember the speed restrictions on the B-29?  Also, do you remember the limiting component for the speed restrictions?  For example, the B-24 was restricted to 400mph (Colmbo feel free to correct me on this) due to the de-icing boot on the wings.


I'm very disappointed that our B-29 in the game sheds its elevators, rudder, and ailerons at 375mph.  I went into a shallow dive after bombing a base to evade several enemy fighters within icon range.  The elevators popped off and I had to bail.  Fortunately my drones were not damaged.
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Offline earl1937

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Re: B-29 aileron governors
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2013, 04:38:54 PM »
ET do you remember why your were restricted in angle of bank at lower speeds?  Was the overbanking so strong that it was a problem?
:airplane: Gosh, that's been 58 years ago and I just can't remember all the figures, but as you know, the FOM doesn't spell out why, just do this or do that! We did not have any banking problems that I can remember, at least not like in this game.
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Offline earl1937

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Re: B-29 aileron governors
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2013, 04:55:00 PM »
Great information Earl.  Do you remember the speed restrictions on the B-29?  Also, do you remember the limiting component for the speed restrictions?  For example, the B-24 was restricted to 400mph (Colmbo feel free to correct me on this) due to the de-icing boot on the wings.


I'm very disappointed that our B-29 in the game sheds its elevators, rudder, and ailerons at 375mph.  I went into a shallow dive after bombing a base to evade several enemy fighters within icon range.  The elevators popped off and I had to bail.  Fortunately my drones were not damaged.
:airplane: Again, best I can remember after 58 years, the VNe had a sliding scale, based on weight and altitude. Both the aircraft commanders which I fly under, had a 330 KIAS, which we never crossed, as the ole bird would begin to viberate and groan around 330 and as they pointed out, unless you had 3 turning and 1 burning, you really had no reason to decend quickly, you just had to plan ahead. Even with "rapid decompression drills", which we had to do on check rides, still no reason to come down fast because you had oxyen on board and if something wrong with that, a 20 min walk around bottle. Besides that the crew chief would probaley shoot us all for cooling his engines to quickly and create problems for him.
Twice in this game since the 29 was introduced, I had to land with no elevator control and it can be done, just use a looooooooong straight in approach, using gear cycleing and flaps to control pitch. When I first descover that problem, I went into the off-line arena and worked on my procedures, so that when it happened in the game, I would have some method of landing the aircraft with the loss of perkies.
If you like, I would be glad to meet you in the training arena for some first hand, in the cockpit help, with different procedures. Just click on my BBS name and send me personal message.
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline colmbo

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Re: B-29 aileron governors
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2013, 07:58:02 PM »
For example, the B-24 was restricted to 400mph (Colmbo feel free to correct me on this) due to the de-icing boot on the wings.


A lot slower:  275mph IAS @ 56000 pounds, 355mph IAS @ 41000 pounds.

If I saw 400 on the ASI of a B-24 I'd most likely get up and head for the exit.  <G>
Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"