Air Superiority Fighter of 60th-70th

[J.A.W.]

Like I wrote, if you are prepared to be civil & interesting, you're ok by me, m.m. - for  sure..

[GScholz]

That specific story about the crazy mig21  - he was fighting the jet-age ace of aces in the Mirage. The outcome was inevitable - I am sure you watched the rest of the episode that describes what followed up in that sortie.

Epstein is the fifth highest scoring jet ace after two Germans and two Russians. The jet-age began in 1944.

[artik]

Epstein is the fifth highest scoring jet ace after two Germans and two Russians. The jet-age began in 1944.

He is the Ace of Aces for Supersonic jet fighters... not 1st generation fighters.

BTW this 3K split-S just shows how underestimated MiG-21 was.

[GScholz]

If you limit it to supersonic jets only, then yes. You did not specify that in your earlier post though.

A MiG-21 with no external load and low on fuel is very nimble indeed. Although it must be said hat this particular MiG driver was already much slower than what would be normal in combat due to his frantic maneuvering. The slower you are when starting your split-S the less altitude you need to recover, and he just barely made it.

[bozon]

Jet age is jet vs jet, not jet vs lumbering 4 prop bombers.

[GScholz]

Still leaves the Korean conflict... And no, the jet age started in 1944.

[GScholz]

And half of Epstein's kills were not supersonic fighters, but MiG-17s, ground attack planes and a helicopter... so there goes that argument out the window.

[J.A.W.]

& so, as G.S. rightly points out, jet-age combat began in `44..

The 1st jet to shoot down another jet aircraft action did occur in `44 too..

The RAF deployed its 1st jet-fighter, the Meteor - to shoot down jet propelled V1 cruise missiles..

 RAF Tempests shot down 800+ V1s &  all operational types of LW turbo-jets too..

[artik]

Once again. Epstein is considered Ace of Aces of Supersonic Jet aircraft, i.e. he achieved his victories while flying supersonic jet.

All his killes were achieved in Mirage III and Nesher.

And yes, there are higher scoring Jet pilots but they had achieved their victories on Subsonic jet fighters.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aces_of_aces

[J.A.W.]

Ah... Supersonic jet.. eh, A, now that's an interesting qualifier..

& do kindly tell, how many of those victories were achieved - at  Mach 1+, then?

[bozon]

Still leaves the Korean conflict... And no, the jet age started in 1944.

Kramarenko if I am not butchering his name had less than 10 jet on jet confirmed kills, at least according to wiki. Which Korean ace had more than 17 kills in jet vs jets?

V1 is an unmanned drone, not a plane and no meteor pilot got 17 of them.

[J.A.W.]

V1 is a jet airplane-cruise missile, & a type of robot aircraft, not a remote control drone per-se..

& one Tempest pilot bagged 60+..

[GScholz]

Kramarenko if I am not butchering his name had less than 10 jet on jet confirmed kills, at least according to wiki. Which Korean ace had more than 17 kills in jet vs jets?

So now the new qualifier is "jet vs jet" lol, this just keeps getting better. Btw. Epstein did not have 17 kills on jets. One was a helicopter.

The top 10 jet aces of all time (i.e. no "qualifiers" to artificially limit the result to Israelis only). It's a bit jumbled, but you can read it.

Rank First Name Name Country Jet Victories Sources Detail Air Service Units Death Note Other Sources
ObLt Kurt WELTER Germany 29 P. Kacha (56 confirmed?) Luftwaffe 5./JG301,10./JG300,Kdo Welter(10./NJG11),NJKdo262 Wilde Sau. Me-262 night fighter. 60(Toli.);56(Ledw.);51;59
Maj Georg-Peter EDER Germany 24 R.Toliver-T.Constable Luftwaffe 4./JG51,7 & 12./JG2,6./JG1,JG26,EJG2,Kdo.Now.,JG7 Viermots hunting master. Me-262 jet ace. 14 jet
Maj Nikolai Vasilevich SUTYAGIN USSR 24 V.Arkhipov (12 conf.US) VVS 5 IAP; 17 IAP, 523IAP 12/11/1986 MiG-15, 1951-52. 22(Sewell);21+2(Bodrik.)
Col Evgenii Georgievich PEPELYAEV USSR 23 W.Thompson (4 unconf.) VVS 29 IAP, 300 IAP, 162 IAP; 196 IAP MiG-15, 1951-52. 20(Polak); 19+4sh; 11; 16
Maj Giora EPSTEIN AVEN Israel 17 P.Mersky IDF/AF 101Sq Mirage III, Six-Day, Attrition, Kippur.
ObstLt Heinrich 'Pritzel' BAER Germany 16 P.Kacha Luftwaffe 1. & 12./JG51,I./JG77,JGrSüd,JG1,JG3,EJG2,JV44 Bf-109, FW-190, Me-262 ace, 39-45. 220 (Toliver); 222
Capt Joseph Jr 'Jo' MCCONNELL USA 16 F. Olynyk USAF 448BG; 39FIS/51FIW 25/08/1954 B-24, ww2. F-86F top ace, 1953. KIFA.
Oblt Rudolf RADEMACHER Germany 16 R.Toliver-T.Constable (23 unconf?) Luftwaffe 3 & 1./JG54, Erg.Gr.Nord, 11./JG7 13/06/1953 Bf-109 and Me-262 ace. 102 (Morgan);97; 8 jet
Maj James 'Jabby' JABARA USA 15 F. Olynyk USAAF & USAF 382FS/363FG; 334FIS/4FIW 17/11/1966 P-51, ETO 44. F-86, Korea, 1951, 1953.
Maj Dmitrii Pavlovich OSKIN USSR 15 N.G.Bodrikhin (2 conf. US) VVS 523 IAP MiG-15, 1951. 9(Zamp.); 11(Polak)

[GScholz]

In "jet vs jet only" the Korean War ace Joseph C. McConnell matches Epstein's kill tally of 16. However McConnell's bag of pelts does not include the inferior quality fur of ground attack planes (Su-7/20) and outdated fighters (MiG-17). McConnell's kills were all contemporary MiG-15s.

http://acepilots.com/korea_mcconnell.html

[bozon]

Great, this guy qualifies. So the jet on jet ace of aces title is shared. I was not aware he had that many.