Question for the 109 gurus

[PFactorDave]

So...  I decided to revisit the 109s this tour.  Specifically the K4.

I think I may have had an "eureka" moment with the tater tosser this evening, so I am going to stick with it and see if I can make it work for me.

My question is, do you 109 gurus prefer to kick Combat Trim off when the fight starts getting flappy?  Or do you let the CT do the trimming even when you hang it all out?

((any other 109, or specifically K4 advice is most welcome))

[Mar]

Personally I've never had any problem with combat trim on, though you may decide differently because CT trims for maximum military power at any one time and the K4 has a lot of torque to compensate for.

[Latrobe]

I have never turned Combat Trim off... in any plane. I haven't really found a need to unless I've start compressing. 

[JunkyII]

I have never turned Combat Trim off... in any plane. I haven't really found a need to unless I've start compressing. 

Same

[Triton28]

I like to turn it off and trim the nose down.  Seems to help with nose bounce if/when you go up after someone flapped out.

[killnu]

I don't specifically mess with combat trim...but I do get, as you put it, "flappy".

[Ardy123]

yes, I always have it off. I always use manual trim in a 109.

[Gman]

I don't know how you guys with CT on can fight with flaps down.  The CT fights against the flaps strangely in the 109 especially, making you have to press the stick forward in order to maintain your shot, and it's progressive I find as well, the more flaps, the more you have to compensate, making shooting much harder, with the nose bouncing around.  As soon as CT is off, this goes away for the most part, or at least if CT is off prior to dumping flaps, it doesn't begin nearly as much.  I find this to be at its worst when I'm nose low, for example coming over the top of a rope, with flaps full, target floating below me - with CT on during this time, the nose keeps trying to "climb" above the target, and this is where I end up having to push back against it, greatly and negatively influencing my aim and shot.  If I come over the top with CT off however as I'm dropping the flaps, it's much, much easier for me to shoot.

I fly around with CT on some of the time, but have buttons on my throttle/stick to quickly turn it off and on, plus trim on one of my thumb hats on all my stick set ups.  Fighting the 109 this way is much easier for me, as soon as I start to maneuver with another aircraft, I push off CT, and instantly put in a notch or two of down trim, so I'm pulling instead of pushing for my shot in the front view if anything, although usually it's pretty neutral and I don't always need to do it depending on speed and altitude.  If I find myself way out of trim shape in a fight, I can always just quickly hit the autotrim again in order to trim out the 109 for whatever speed and position I'm in at the time.  Once the fight is over, if I'm alive still, I just put CT back on and continue on my merry way, flying around without worrying about trim.

[PFactorDave]

I don't know how you guys with CT on can fight with flaps down.  The CT fights against the flaps strangely in the 109 especially, making you have to press the stick forward in order to maintain your shot, and it's progressive I find as well, the more flaps, the more you have to compensate, making shooting much harder, with the nose bouncing around.  As soon as CT is off, this goes away for the most part, or at least if CT is off prior to dumping flaps, it doesn't begin nearly as much.  I find this to be at its worst when I'm nose low, for example coming over the top of a rope, with flaps full, target floating below me - with CT on during this time, the nose keeps trying to "climb" above the target, and this is where I end up having to push back against it, greatly and negatively influencing my aim and shot.  If I come over the top with CT off however as I'm dropping the flaps, it's much, much easier for me to shoot.

I fly around with CT on some of the time, but have buttons on my throttle/stick to quickly turn it off and on, plus trim on one of my thumb hats on all my stick set ups.  Fighting the 109 this way is much easier for me, as soon as I start to maneuver with another aircraft, I push off CT, and instantly put in a notch or two of down trim, so I'm pulling instead of pushing for my shot in the front view if anything, although usually it's pretty neutral and I don't always need to do it depending on speed and altitude.  If I find myself way out of trim shape in a fight, I can always just quickly hit the autotrim again in order to trim out the 109 for whatever speed and position I'm in at the time.  Once the fight is over, if I'm alive still, I just put CT back on and continue on my merry way, flying around without worrying about trim.

This is similar to my experience so far.  I first acquired this habit in the Ki84, which also really seems to benefit by kicking CT off when getting flappy.

[JunkyII]

I find with flaps down the K4 is easier to aim then while at full speed....have no idea what some here are saying. I understand manual trim but I don't feel it's effect on shooting at all.

[FLS]

I find with flaps down the K4 is easier to aim then while at full speed....have no idea what some here are saying. I understand manual trim but I don't feel it's effect on shooting at all.

When you have flaps down it has the effect of increasing wing incidence thus lowering your nose in level flight. That may be why you find shooting easier.

Combat Trim trims for level flight with flaps up. If you have combat trim on and flaps down then you need to push your stick forward a little for level flight. This may cause you to move your stick back and forth across a middle dead band which makes accurate shooting more difficult.

Also, if you scale your stick for the pitch axis and hold it forward for level flight with flaps down and CT on then you lose the finer control you have when the stick is centered. Scaling the pitch axis works best when you fly trimmed for your speed and flap position.

[mechanic]

Essentially using manual trim or correcting with the stick manually does the same thing, so it's just a question of how you taught yourself. I never had a stick with lots of buttons so I learned to fly with CT on and compensate with the stick.

I would predict that the majority of guys with manual trim tendencies probably have an available hat for trimming and a majority of guys who stick-correct have a less well endowed stick (no, don't even go there)  

[LCADolby]

If I remember Skuzzys words correctly, CT does not take into account flaps.

[Wiley]

I relatively recently started to kick combat trim off when it's down to stallfighting speeds.  I find it really helps in pretty much every plane because the trim isn't constantly changing, thus changing your inputs subtly as your speed changes.  I haven't flown a K4 in a good while, but from what I know of its low speed handling it really wouldn't surprise me at all if it benefits from it quite a bit.

I know for me, turning it off really improved my ability in many planes (mostly F4U's, Jugs, KI-84) to ride the edge near stall speed.  YMMV.

Wiley.

[-pjk--]

I never use CT. I just do not like how it effects my flying...